# Oregon man who killed his family -- He's a "Promise Keeper" **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 29, 2002, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oregon-man-who-killed-his-family-hes-a-promise-keeper/145456 "2002-12-29T02:50:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2002, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oregon-man-who-killed-his-family-hes-a-promise-keeper/145456/1 "2002-12-29T02:50:36Z")
The media seems to be lowballing his affiliation with the organization, but my local TV news just added one more descriptor to the vehicle of Edward Morris, who has been on the run since he [murdered his family](http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/134604399_morris28m.html): It sports a “Promise Keepers” bumper sticker. Golly, they’re scratching their heads about a motive, and no-one mentions that he’s involved with a quasi-militaristic fundamentalist organization that claims the male head of a family is that family’s conduit to god. > [@](#): > > “The first thing you do is sit down with your wife and say something like this: ‘Honey, I’ve made a terrible mistake. I’ve given you my role. I gave up leading the family, and I forced you to take my place. Now I must reclaim that role.’ Don’t misunderstand what I’m saying here. I’m not suggesting that you ask for your role back, I’m urging you to take it back. If you simply ask for it back, your wife is likely to simply refuse.” --Tony Evans, Promise Keeper speaker. And what if she says, “Honey, don’t be such a dumb fuck.”…? ---
**Author:** ![ratty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ccd318/32.png) [@ratty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ratty)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2002, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oregon-man-who-killed-his-family-hes-a-promise-keeper/145456/2 "2002-12-29T02:54:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Larry Mudd \* > \*\*And what if she says, “Honey, don’t be such a dumb fuck.”…? \*\* I guess that’s when you’re supposed to kill her. 'Cause I mean, it’s not like it’d be _wrong_, or anything. God told him to. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2002, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oregon-man-who-killed-his-family-hes-a-promise-keeper/145456/3 "2002-12-29T02:54:19Z")
Do you have any evidence there’s a link? Coincidence isn’t causality. ---
**Author:** ![Snooooopy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@Snooooopy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snooooopy)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2002, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oregon-man-who-killed-his-family-hes-a-promise-keeper/145456/4 "2002-12-29T03:02:54Z")
I hear the “Promise Keepers” bumper sticker is right next to the one that reads, “My Child was Student of the Month at Kennedy Middle School Before I Killed Him.” ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2002, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oregon-man-who-killed-his-family-hes-a-promise-keeper/145456/5 "2002-12-29T03:13:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RickJay \* > \*\*Do you have any evidence there’s a link? Coincidence isn’t causality. \*\* I think he’s merely suggesting that they should check it out as a motive, not that there’s some definate cause and effect going on here. But on the other hand - Larry - I doubt they’re really scratching their heads with this, they’re probably just being careful about what they say and when they say it as usual. ---
**Author:** ![Heloise](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e36b37/32.png) [@Heloise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heloise)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2002, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oregon-man-who-killed-his-family-hes-a-promise-keeper/145456/6 "2002-12-29T03:15:08Z")
That’s kind of like saying all Muslims are evil because some of them bombed the WTC. If you want to overgeneralize, be my guest. ---
**Author:** ![techchick68](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ea5d25/32.png) [@techchick68](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/techchick68)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2002, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oregon-man-who-killed-his-family-hes-a-promise-keeper/145456/7 "2002-12-29T03:23:39Z")
For the record, my brothers and my dad are members of Promise Keepers. My oldest brother explained to me one day, while crying, what a difference that Promise Keepers and his Christian religion has made in his life. He is truly devoted to his religion and his family. With that said, where is it written that we, as a society should hold people of faith on a higher level than those who are not devoted to such? Every human, with or without God or religion is doing those things that are unthinkable, even to Atheists? What does Promise Keepers have to do with this? He’s a human who apparently snapped. BTW, I heard a 911 call last night of an eight year old girl who called 911 when there was discourse in the house. A house that never, apparently, had been called before regarding domestic violence, no religious conotations (sp) or anything. The father apparently killed his two kids and his wife then put the gun to his own head. Religious or not, what’s the problem? My oldest brother is one of the kindest souls I know and is not a “quasi-militaristic fundamentalist.” Just because someone is afilillated with an organization doesn’t mean that is what brought about this horrific crime. That’s like saying that all Catholic priests are child molesters. Generalization is a horrible thing. Not all rednecks are racists. Not all republicans are against abortions. Not all Democrats are pro-choice… \< roll eyes \> ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2002, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oregon-man-who-killed-his-family-hes-a-promise-keeper/145456/8 "2002-12-29T03:32:24Z")
Actually techchick, I hate to be a Fussy Freddy but this word - I do not think it means what you think it means. Republicans _are_ generally against abortions, Democrats _are_ generally against abortions. As for the Promise Keepers - I’ve never even heard of them outside of this thread so I can’t be too quick to judge but the quote in the OP is pretty nasty. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2002, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oregon-man-who-killed-his-family-hes-a-promise-keeper/145456/9 "2002-12-29T03:36:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Cisco \* > **Democrats _are_ generally against abortions.** Read: in favor of. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Lao](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/2bfe46/32.png) [@Dr.Lao](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Lao)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2002, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oregon-man-who-killed-his-family-hes-a-promise-keeper/145456/10 "2002-12-29T03:39:08Z")
Yeah, and I hate to go out on a limb here, but I’m betting that the Promise Keepers are pretty strongly against family murder. ---
**Author:** ![techchick68](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ea5d25/32.png) [@techchick68](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/techchick68)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2002, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oregon-man-who-killed-his-family-hes-a-promise-keeper/145456/11 "2002-12-29T03:40:22Z")
**Cisco** , As a general platform, yes, they are generally against it (whatever that platform is) however, the Promise Keepers is an organization of men who are devoted to their family via strong Christian values. IIRC, it was started by a former University of Colorado football coach, who’s name has slipped my mind at this time. [http://www.promisekeepers.org/](http://www.promisekeepers.org/) I am not a Christian but seeing the emotional side of what they had/have done for my brother makes me sad to see that the OP puts this kind of weight upon one organization. An organization that does promote strong Christian values but that doesn’t mean that it’s intent is to be against women, it’s to push men to embrace their family in a Christian way. Many think that the women and children come second, based on them but that’s just not the case. While I am not for these types of organizations, I do see the strength it has given my brothers and my dad. ---
**Author:** ![Trob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Trob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trob)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2002, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oregon-man-who-killed-his-family-hes-a-promise-keeper/145456/12 "2002-12-29T03:40:59Z")
I also heard that Ted Bundy and Charles Manson were Democrats. But I am sure that doesn’t mean anything. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2002, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oregon-man-who-killed-his-family-hes-a-promise-keeper/145456/13 "2002-12-29T03:41:49Z")
You’re onto something here. Maybe we should look at _everybody’s_ bumper stickers and group affiliations. I’ll bet this strategy might work if we’re trying to figure out why having an ACTUP bumper sticker on your car might predispose some men to get AIDS. We could investigate why having a Grateful Dead bumper sticker on your car might predispose some people toward drug overdoses or why a NAACP bumper sticker might pre-dispose you to eat at Red Lobster more often … well gosh, there’s just so many group affiliation and behavioral relationships we could use to make determinative statements about situations we have no truly useful information about. Thanks for the insight. BTW I think CSI Miami is looking for some good writers. With your mad skillz at parsing out these causality relationships you might want to apply. ---
**Author:** ![Heloise](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e36b37/32.png) [@Heloise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heloise)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2002, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oregon-man-who-killed-his-family-hes-a-promise-keeper/145456/14 "2002-12-29T03:42:24Z")
I’m not sure what you mean, **Cisco** , but **techchick** made sense to me. You might want to read her post again. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2002, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oregon-man-who-killed-his-family-hes-a-promise-keeper/145456/15 "2002-12-29T03:52:46Z")
Made sense to me too Heloise, I was just nitpicking, half in jest. Re-read my post. ---
**Author:** ![Heloise](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e36b37/32.png) [@Heloise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heloise)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2002, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oregon-man-who-killed-his-family-hes-a-promise-keeper/145456/16 "2002-12-29T04:10:56Z")
Ah, okay. I think this is what confused me: > [@](#): > > Republicans are generally against abortions, Democrats are generally against abortions. ---
**Author:** ![Geobabe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/geobabe/32/3908_2.png) [@Geobabe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Geobabe)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2002, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oregon-man-who-killed-his-family-hes-a-promise-keeper/145456/17 "2002-12-29T05:17:50Z")
Had there been a rash of Promise Keepers murdering their families, I might think you were on to something, **Larry**. But like the others said, just because one guy went nuts doesn’t prove a damn thing. ---
**Author:** ![CLedet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b487fb/32.png) [@CLedet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CLedet)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2002, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oregon-man-who-killed-his-family-hes-a-promise-keeper/145456/18 "2002-12-29T05:45:36Z")
So Larry, whats your point? Did someone with a Promise Keepers bumper sticker cut you off in traffic? ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2002, 9:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oregon-man-who-killed-his-family-hes-a-promise-keeper/145456/19 "2002-12-29T09:02:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Trob \* > \*\*I also heard that Ted Bundy and Charles Manson were Democrats. But I am sure that doesn’t mean anything. \*\* Ted Bundy was a player in local Republican politics. He was not a democrat. Manson may have been, I don’t know…😃 ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2002, 9:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oregon-man-who-killed-his-family-hes-a-promise-keeper/145456/20 "2002-12-29T09:26:59Z")
**techchick** , you’re right-- overgeneralizations are A Bad Thing. I _do_ have a hair up my ass about the Promise Keepers. To me, they seem pretty much equivalent with the Talibs, in that they (the organization, not necessarily the adherents,) take religion out of the personal domain and politicize it, seeking to influence the administration of government. This, mixed with an ideology that is arguably anti-women and anti-gay, scares the hell out of me. Obviously, Promise Keepers is a huge organization and the percentage of its membership that goes on to slay their family in cold blood is negligible. Further to that, nothing in their literature appears to advocate gamocide. That being said, I think that the underlying ideology of Promise Keepers is pathological and profoundly dangerous. When the founder of an organization goes on record, without blushing, to state that “There’s coming a day when the strongest voice in America will be that of a Christian male,” it sounds more like a _threat_ than a promise to me. McCarthy’s pastor, the Rev. James Ryle, preaches that Promise Keepers is the army prophesied in the Book of Joel: > [@](#): > > The LORD thunders > at the head of his army; > his forces are beyond number, > and mighty are those who obey his command. > The day of the LORD is great; > it is dreadful. > Who can endure it? While I’m quite sure no one of any importance in PK would counsel their members to commit violence against uppity women, it seems to me that an ideology which revolves around the idea that men are inherently superior to women, and a representative of God within the family unit, cannot foster a healthy family environment. “Disagree with _me?_ You’re going against God’s will.” Sure, the Seven Promises look fine. But the shit that is spouted at the rallies is dangerous, and seems (to me) to be engineered to attract insecure men by giving them the sort of validation that they are unlikely to receive in the wider world. “You’re right. Your word is law. Your wife and family should blindly obey you, or they are committing a grievous sin-- and you’re living in sin if you don’t exert an iron will over them.” Christian fellowship is a fine thing – but I suspect that the PK variety is a fraud, and the ideology is more personal than gospel. I am especially mistrustful of them since the organization is nearly transparently about raising huge amounts of money for right-wing lobby groups. Their stadium rallies look like boat shows, for christ’s sake. Or maybe not for Christ’s sake. There are tens of thousands of Scientologists that will tell you that the CoS totally turned their life around and gave them hope where there was none before. I’ve got family & friends that have been involved with Scientology, and they’re not stupid or evil, either. Does that mean I’m cool with Scientology? Fuck no, they’re a bunch of thieving bastards who are taking advantage of their members. I’ll post this before the hamsters sleep, and be back. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oregon-man-who-killed-his-family-hes-a-promise-keeper/145456.md?page=2)