# Oregon man who killed his family -- He's a "Promise Keeper" **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 29, 2002, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oregon-man-who-killed-his-family-hes-a-promise-keeper/145456 "2002-12-29T02:50:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2002, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oregon-man-who-killed-his-family-hes-a-promise-keeper/145456/41 "2002-12-29T18:13:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by beagledave \* > \*\*Any cite at all…or is this just baseless speculation? > \*\* I’ll have to see if I can track down **mirele**. She is far more knowledgeable about the Promisekeepers than I am, and much of what I know about them I learned from her. Ms. also did an expose once, ---
**Author:** ![beagledave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6de8d8/32.png) [@beagledave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beagledave)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2002, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oregon-man-who-killed-his-family-hes-a-promise-keeper/145456/42 "2002-12-29T18:27:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by KellyM \* > \*\* Ms. also did an expose once, \*\* Huh. [Irony](http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_pk.htm). > [@](#): > > Donna Minkowitz, a journalist from Ms magazine, smuggled herself into a Promise Keeper’s rally in St. Petersburg FL in 1995. She disguised herself as a teen-aged boy. She recognizes that the group is anti-gay and anti-abortion. But she says that this is not their main thrust. She says: “In some ways, I think they are changing men in a really good way that feminists would like. While some of their message is antifeminist and right-wing, I think ignoring the good side doesn’t do us a service at all.” FWIW, I don’t belong to PK…I find its principles rooted in a different aspect of Christianity then mine . But to claim that > [@](#): > > PK teaching doesn’t cause domestic violence, but it certainly increases its risk in situations where the risk factors were preexisting. or > [@](#): > > And I think that PK targets men who are already at risk to be family abusers. is ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2002, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oregon-man-who-killed-his-family-hes-a-promise-keeper/145456/43 "2002-12-29T20:38:01Z")
Um, SkipMagic, you lifted Luke 19:27 from a parable about an earthly king who was a hard taskmaster and usurped his power. It was for the benefit of those who thought the Kingdom of God was going to appear at once. As for the commission, I believe that it is indeed great. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2002, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oregon-man-who-killed-his-family-hes-a-promise-keeper/145456/44 "2002-12-29T20:42:34Z")
Folks, the reason that I feel frightened and threatened by the Promise Keepers movement is because I lend a certain amount of credence to what organizations like the National Organization of Women & the Center for Democracy Studies have written about it. If I’ve been seriously misled about it, there’s nothing I’d like better than to be set straight. I’d gratefully take having one less thing in the world to be anxious about. **techchick** , take a pill. Or just try a little circumspection and reading comprehension. Nobody’s said anything against your brothers or your dad. Based on your posts, I think _you’re_ the most likely candidate in your family to snap one day and commit a multiple homicide. Thanks for actually reading my posts, **Morgyn**. To be honest, I wouldn’t go so far to say that I already recognize I _have_ a problem. What I’ve read about PK still alarms the hell out of me, and if it’s true, I still think they’re a threat. Seeing the responses here of people I respect, (including **techchick** , dammit,) is certainly enough to throw a buttload of doubt my way, though. I wonder how much perception of PK is polarized by a christian/non-christian dichotomy? (For the record, the New Testament is the book I rely on the most for spiritual guidance… That’s followed closely by the _Tao te Ching_, though.) My idea of “Christian values” doesn’t really match up well with PK, though. I take that advice about going into your closet to pray to heart. **DuckDuckGoose** , as I’ve already said, there’s nothing controversial or alarming about PK’s website or McCarthy’s public speeches. > [@](#): > > Be so kind as to point out to me the “quasi-militaristic” parts, and also exactly which “underlying ideology” is “pathological and profoundly dangerous.” _Quasi_-miltaristic. There’s an aggregate effect. Things like calling their leadership [“officers”](http://www.promisekeepers.org/faqs/core/faqscore26.htm), andthe policy of canvassing church groups and establishing a “[point man](http://www.bartleby.com/61/22/P0402200.html)” in each who reports directly to Boulder, and is charged with influencing his particular group. It would hysterical to get antsy about that, in isolation, of course. Placed in context of the rest of the militaristic qualities of PK, though, it smacks of fifth-column strategics to me. (If this is parallel with paranoids thinking communists or freemasons are conspiring in the dark, let me know. Could be.) Here are some other sources of my unease: > [@](#): > > A recent article in Humanist magazine noted that the Promise Keepers have been active in recruiting retired military officers to help them in the organization of the PK movement. One such recruit is Jim Pack, a retired Green Beret colonel and psychological warfare specialist for the U.S. military. > > Currently the Promise Keepers’ regional manager for the state of Texas, Pack has said “I believe with all of my heart that the military structure that we know and love so well is perfect for the accountable relationship which God is calling us to in Promise Keepers.” > > In addition to seeking a military-style organizational structure, the Promise Keepers also seem to endow themselves with a sort of ‘holy warrior’ ethic. In a 1995 Promise Keepers video entitled ‘The Next Step: From the Stadium to the Small Group’, PK founder Bill McCartney says to his followers, “Many of you feel like you have been in a war for a long time, yet the fiercest fighting is just ahead. God has brought us here to prepare us. Let’s proceed. It’s wartime.” > > And according to a 1997 Washington Post article, Rev. Jim Ryle, one of the founding directors of the Promise Keepers, told a reporter that the Promise Keepers would fulfill the divinely-anointed role of a “great force that will destroy sinners and infidels” in the period preceding Armageddon. [Link](http://www.peak.sfu.ca/the-peak/98-3/issue10/promises.html) > [@](#): > > In a recent interview in response to a question as to whether the Promise Keepers could be fulfilling the prophecy in Joel of raising an army, [Pastor] James Ryle answered,“Yes… 300,000 men have come together so far this year under Promise Keepers… Never in history have 300,000 men come together except to go towar. These men are gathered for War.” [Link](http://www.banner.org.uk/pk/pk6.html) > [@](#): > > Former University of Colorado football coach Bill McCartney, who convened the first Promise Keepers gathering in 1990, told the group’s clergy rally in 1995 that “whoever stands with the Messiah will rule with him.” He urged them to “take this nation for Jesus Christ!” At another rally, McCartney said, “Whenever the truth is at risk, in the schools or legislature, we are going to contend for it. We will win!” [Link](http://www.publiceye.org/theocrat/FC_prom.html) > [@](#): > > We have a great army that we are assembling. They’re the Christian men of this nation. However, our leadership, our clergy are not uniform. Our clergy are divided. Division is many visions. There’s no unity of command … there is tremendous division in our clergy. We have to assume that responsibility. We have to say, `Are we impacting our clergy in a way that’s going to take them and make them all that they have to be in order to lead this army because the shepherds are the ones God’s chosen to lead us out of here.’ > > "Now, I think many of you are in touch with the fact that we’re having a pastor’s gathering in Atlanta on February 12th, 13th and 14th. This gathering in Atlanta should exceed 100,000 clergymen. Why? Because we have many more than that, AND EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM OUGHT TO BE THERE. WE CAN’T HAVE ANYBODY PASS UP THAT MEETING. IF A GUY SAYS THAT HE DOESN’T WANT TO GO, HE NEEDS TO BE ABLE TO TELL US WHY HE DOESN’T WANT TO GO? ‘Why wouldn’t you want to be a part of what God wants to do with His hand-picked leaders?’ We need to understand that our clergymen, many of them, are reluctant to go. Many of you come from churches and your clergymen have never been to a Promise Keepers gathering because they’re keeping a distance from us. You need to go back and tell them: Promise Keepers wants to come along side you and be everything you need by encouraging [your] men and giving resources. > > “Now listen to me men. February 12th, 13th and 14th to me is not a coincidence that it comes over Valentine’s Day. I think we’re going to have another St. Valentine’s Day massacre. I think Almighty God is going to rip open the hearts of our leaders. I think He’s going to tear them open. And I THINK HE’S GOING TO PUT THEM BACK TOGETHER AGAINST AS ONE. ONE LEADERSHIP. WE’VE GO TO HAVE ONE LEADERSHIP, ONE LEADERSHIP ONLY” (Bill McCartney, Promise Keepers, Detroit Silver Dome, April 29, 1995). [link](http://www.wayoflife.org/otimothy/tl08001a.htm) As for the pathological part, this is, of course, a matter for debate. Personally, I consider the idea that men have some sort of divine authority within the family beyond ludicrous, and it’s an idea that seems to be inseparable from the Promise Keepers _ethos_. > [@](#): > > “There’s coming a day when the strongest voice in America will be that of a Christian male.” – Bill McCarthy I guess the idea that marriage is a partnership in which both parties are equal is a relatively experimental one. Maybe it’s wrong. Maybe men are simply better suited decision-making than women are. Myself, I’m willing to give the whole “Two heads are better than one” thing a bit more of a chance. I admit that the idea of gathering thousands of men together and urging them to _take_ control of their wives, while carefully making the distinction that this is not the same thing as _asking_ for control, and suggesting that they should do this _because it is God’s Will_, end-of-argument, seems dangerously pathological to me. Is this a warped perception of PK engendered by liberal propaganda? Yes, I’ve read the admonitions to love, respect, and support your wives. If it’s conditional on total obedience, though, is it still respect? I know that there are plenty of women who stand by their PK man. The tone of the _Suitable Helpers_ newsletter for Promise Keeper wives is hard for me to reconcile with the tone of the rallies. An ode to the strength and character of women from that publication seems duplicitous to me, though. “They fight for what they believe in. They stand up for injustice.” How does that jibe with “They smile when they want to scream. They sing when they want to cry,” and “They don’t mind standing in the shadows. They are not there to push, but to gently encourage”? Blecch. Okay, I’ve got to get about my business for the day, so I’ll wrap up for the nonce. One thing that should not remain unsaid, though, is that in the cold light of day it’s plain that implying a connection between Morris’ affiliation with PK and the murder of his family _was_ way out of line, and I apologize for that. I don’t regret it though, since I’m glad of the debate. Sometimes expressing thoughts gives you an opportunity to evaluate them (even before they are challenged,) in a way that’s not possible if they just flow through your skull and are forgotten. . For instance, I find myself questioning why the militaristic rhetoric of PK gives me the heebie-jeebies while the Salvation Army, which is much more explicit in its organizational analogy, doesn’t get my back up at all. I suppose it’s because I trust that the money that the Sally Ann raises is gathered in spirit of true christian charity, and they don’t (as far as I know,) use it attempt to influence the administration of government by lobbying with an agenda appears un-christian to me. ---
**Author:** ![lel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8797f3/32.png) [@lel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lel)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2002, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oregon-man-who-killed-his-family-hes-a-promise-keeper/145456/45 "2002-12-29T21:13:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Larry Mudd \* > **I wonder how much perception of PK is polarized by a christian/non-christian dichotomy?** There’s certainly not going to be a perfect correlation. There’s got to be Christians who are not in favor of PK and non-Christians who are in favor of PK. > [@](#): > > I admit that the idea of gathering thousands of men together and urging them to _take_ control of their wives, while carefully making the distinction that this is not the same thing as _asking_ for control, and suggesting that they should do this _because it is God’s Will_, end-of-argument, seems dangerously pathological to me. Is this a warped perception of PK engendered by liberal propaganda? Yes, I’ve read the admonitions to love, respect, and support your wives. If it’s conditional on total obedience, though, is it still respect? Well, I find the idea of men taking control, end of discussion somewhat disturbing. I can’t say that I wouldn’t be disturbed if I had a boyfriend/husband who decided to attend a PK rally. Scratch that, I’d be downright terrified – the day I’d make a good PK wife is the day that hell would freeze over. But all in all, it is just a gut reaction. > [@](#): > > I suppose it’s because I trust that the money that the Sally Ann raises is gathered in spirit of true christian charity, and they don’t (as far as I know,) use it attempt to influence the administration of government by lobbying with an agenda appears un-christian to me. If you’re worried about Christians lobbying the government, I’d worry more about [Focus on the Family](http://www.family.org/) or the [Christian Coalition](http://www.cc.org/). Besides, how well have they done anyway? (Okay, that’s another can of worms, but it is a valuable question to ask.) ---
**Author:** ![Cardinal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardinal/32/4000_2.png) [@Cardinal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardinal)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2002, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oregon-man-who-killed-his-family-hes-a-promise-keeper/145456/46 "2002-12-29T21:32:57Z")
> [@](#): > > I guess that’s when you’re supposed to kill her. > > 'Cause I mean, it’s not like it’d be wrong, or anything. God told him to. I should have known better than to even read this thread, but… If this were some group based on say, a racial or national origin line, would you even think of saying something so offensive and just off the wall? ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2002, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oregon-man-who-killed-his-family-hes-a-promise-keeper/145456/47 "2002-12-29T21:43:59Z")
**Cardinal** , I think that **ratty** ’s post was sarcastic, and that the rolleyes were aimed at the idea, (implied, I guess, in the OP, _mea culpa_,) that the killings would be sanctioned in any way by Promise Keepers, or were a natural consequence of his Promise Keepers membership. ---
**Author:** ![techchick68](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ea5d25/32.png) [@techchick68](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/techchick68)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2002, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oregon-man-who-killed-his-family-hes-a-promise-keeper/145456/48 "2002-12-29T22:01:37Z")
[quote] **techchick** , take a pill. Or just try a little circumspection and reading comprehension. Nobody’s said anything against your brothers or your dad. Based on your posts, I think you’re the most likely candidate in your family to snap one day and commit a multiple homicide.\*\* You may be correct in this statement, however, I can’t even kill a fly without feeling remorse as that’s a life I was not given to take. With that said…I have seen what PK has done for my family and while I am not a Christian, I do agree with the basic principles that PK had brought into what used to be a very difficult and very unhappy family. Yes, you acknowledged that maybe, on some level, there is no connection between the man who murdered his family and PK but you brought up to begin with, which distresses me. I don’t agree for any fundamentalism on any level. Hell, I can be at the front doors of Focus On the Family in a matter of five minutes, an organization I loathe with all my being. They are in our face here, they do enough legal gay bashing that if I were a violent person, they’d be gone from my city. The moronic views of them and the people they encourage here leaves me with hate and I don’t like to hate. BUT, Promise Keepers has made a very strong difference in how my brothers and father relate to me, their wives, and people outside the family. I saw this first hand. My brother is a strong willed, strong person, yet he wept to his little sister about the changes they spoke about. He let loose tears, to his little sister, about what they were teaching him. To bring my brother to tears about his family and what it should mean to him, I think that’s a positive thing and I see nothing wrong with a man wanting to bring God, Jesus and his family around him in very good ways. I apologize for my stupid rantings, this morning. I hadn’t slept and I get pretty stupid by that time of day. But my passion is not less than it was this am. However, I do apologize for just being a pain in the ass. It was not called for and outright rude. But I still think your OP was off base, but you know that. ---
**Author:** ![Klaatu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Klaatu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Klaatu)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2002, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oregon-man-who-killed-his-family-hes-a-promise-keeper/145456/49 "2002-12-29T22:44:11Z")
I don’t see the Promise Keepers as being much different than most other fundementalist Christian groups in the US. They interpret many aspects of the bible literally, they are against abortion and against gay rights. Same old shit. About their stance regarding female roles in a domestic relationship, yes they do regard women as subservient, as laid out in biblical verse, according to their interpretation of scripture. However, with regard to the OP, I don’t think you can make a direct correlation with PK’s and domestic violence. A google search for Bill McCartney quotes will yield some revealing answers. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2002, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oregon-man-who-killed-his-family-hes-a-promise-keeper/145456/50 "2002-12-29T23:30:08Z")
Since this apparently snuck by unchallenged, I would like to correct **Cisco’s** inaccurate dichotomy, i.e. “Republicans are generally against abortions; Democrats are generally in favor of abortions”. Members of _both_ parties typically dislike the idea of abortions. Your statement should read “Republicans are generally against abortion rights; Democrats are generally for abortion rights.” And while I find the Promise Keepers generally repellent, I don’t suspect them of being any more prone to mass murder than the population at large. ---
**Author:** ![unclviny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/e274bd/32.png) [@unclviny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/unclviny)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2002, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oregon-man-who-killed-his-family-hes-a-promise-keeper/145456/51 "2002-12-29T23:50:16Z")
My .02, PK has always scared me, the men have that “I’ve benn zombified” look about them and when they came through town the first time on a big recruiting push, it seemed to be quite expensive and I am a “follow the money” kind of guy. Plus, it just seemed unnatural to have 25,000 men in a stadium crying and “loving” each other, one thing is for sure, I’m not interested in a PK babysitter, there is something scary about those folks. Now, as far as this murderer is concerned I am sure (in my mind) that PK or not, he was a whack job first. unclviny ---
**Author:** ![beagledave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6de8d8/32.png) [@beagledave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beagledave)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2002, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oregon-man-who-killed-his-family-hes-a-promise-keeper/145456/52 "2002-12-30T00:14:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by unclviny \* > \*\* > Plus, it just seemed unnatural to have 25,000 men in a stadium crying and “loving” each other, \*\* :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![SkipMagic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skipmagic/32/20706_2.png) [@SkipMagic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SkipMagic)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2002, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oregon-man-who-killed-his-family-hes-a-promise-keeper/145456/53 "2002-12-30T00:51:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Libertarian \* > **Um, SkipMagic, you lifted Luke 19:27 from a parable…** Well, I sure hope I did; otherwise, maybe, I ended up borrowing from the wrong passage. And then _that_ would have been embarrasing. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Boxer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47774/32.png) [@Boxer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boxer)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2002, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oregon-man-who-killed-his-family-hes-a-promise-keeper/145456/54 "2002-12-30T01:08:55Z")
Well, we now have 1 murderer (alleged) member out of 10-20 million PKs. We have one bad moral principle out of the 7 basics from PK. So, let’s worry about the whole organization and throw it out? I know lots of folk who have benefited enormously from PK and/or the principles they espouse. To put it very personally, I would love to have had a father who had a real and personal faith he shared with a group of believers rather than his spending my whole childhood at the bar. I would have preferred him to be more assertive in relating to my mother rather than leaving her at home so he could whore around. I would be fine with him spending time at my football games instead of spending 80 hours a week selling insurance to prop his weak self-image. TECHCHICK68: Exactly the same sort of people are behind PK as those who are behind Focus On the Family. Could you be wrong about FOF? I encourage you to rethink. ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2002, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oregon-man-who-killed-his-family-hes-a-promise-keeper/145456/55 "2002-12-30T04:27:15Z")
Nah, she’s right about the gay-bashing. FOF is much more “into” that than PK. There are only 7 hits for “homosexual” on the PK site, 4 of which are links to the same very simple two-paragraph “homosexuality statement” in their FAQ. Obviously it’s not that big an issue to them. [http://www.promisekeepers.org/issu/faqsissu214.htm](http://www.promisekeepers.org/issu/faqsissu214.htm) > [@](#): > > Promise Keepers shares the same historic stance taken by Evangelicals and Catholics: that sex is a good gift from God to be enjoyed in the context of heterosexual marriage. We believe that the Bible clearly teaches that homosexuality violates God’s > creative design for a husband and a wife and that it is a sin (Leviticus 18:22; Romans 1:24-27; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10). > > Because we have experienced the love of Christ, we desire to share His love with all men. While we have clear convictions regarding the issue of homosexuality, we invite homosexuals to be recipients of God’s mercy, grace, and forgiveness, available > to everyone through a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. We therefore support their being included and welcomed in all our events. Whereas FOF turns up 826 documents for “homosexual”, all of which are finger-wagging " :eek: " sermons in one format or another, cassettes, links, etc. The first page of hits (titles only, it’s not worth making links). [http://search.family.org/query.html?rq=0&col=aaafocus&col=resource&qp=&qt=homosexual&qs=&qc=&pw=450&ws=0&la=&qm=0&st=1&nh=10&lk=1&rf=0&oq=&rq2=0](http://search.family.org/query.html?rq=0&col=aaafocus&col=resource&qp=&qt=homosexual&qs=&qc=&pw=450&ws=0&la=&qm=0&st=1&nh=10&lk=1&rf=0&oq=&rq2=0) > [@](#): > > Broadcast cassette: It is possible to come out of the homosexual lifestyle. Two former homosexuals share their passion to help others affected by this … > > A homosexual medical group admits something that gays have long denied: The gay lifestyle leads to a host of medical problems. > > In a victory for the American Civil Liberties Union and homosexual activists, a California school district has agreed to adopt sweeping reforms that many say give … > > Homosexual activists disrupt the Southern Baptists’ annual meeting. > > A lesser-known but important psychology association endorses homosexual adoption. > > After years of neglect and indifference, Christians nationwide are beginning to reach out to homosexuals and their families through a number of dynamic ministries. This information … > > A homosexual rights group claims a record number of homosexuals are leaving the military because of harassment. But others balk at that charge. > > Funny TV host puts appealing face on homosexual adoption. > > There’s no question Rosie loves her kids, but that’s not reason enough to justify allowing homosexuals to adopt. > > A new report finds ample evidence for concern about homosexual molestation of children. ---
**Author:** ![RexDart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b77776/32.png) [@RexDart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RexDart)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2002, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oregon-man-who-killed-his-family-hes-a-promise-keeper/145456/56 "2002-12-30T06:21:45Z")
Since the guy who started Promise Keepers was the CU coach during the infamous “5th Down” game, I think it’s clearly my duty as a proud Missourian to be overly suspicious of them. [geek mode] Also, Promise Keepers could be abbreviated PK, which is just like player-killer, so I suspect promise keepers are a covert clan of Everquest players who lie in wait killing item-campers. Lowest of the low 😉 [/geek mode] In all seriousness, I’d be rather concerned if any of my family members got involved with that group. They seem a little rabid to me, what with the big rallies and so forth. As the Christian religion teaches generally obedience to authority, I’d fear that members would be too easily manipulated by the leaders, too quickly driven to dangerous extremism. Perhaps this fellow couldn’t handle such extreme thinking, couldn’t make moderate use of the ideals but instead got carried away to the brink of insanity. But of course, it’s 100% speculation at this point. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2002, 7:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oregon-man-who-killed-his-family-hes-a-promise-keeper/145456/57 "2002-12-30T07:53:53Z")
I don’t know anything about the Promise Keepers other than what I have read here. But _if_ its leaders want to subjugate slightly more than half of the people on the face of the Earth, I think that they are friggin’ nuts! (I said the same thing about the Southern Baptist Convention.) And no amount of “accepting responsibility” can excuse it. BTW, domestic violence can be mental and emotional as well as physical. Imagine for a moment that the PK had been told to take (not ask for) dominance over another race. It’s the same difference – an attempt to make individuals submissive! Hel-lo? The Bible also says “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.” If you wouldn’t want to be dominated, then don’t don’t attempt to dominate someone else." Time to watch **Pleasantville** again and put on my black and white makeup?:smack: ---
**Author:** ![MrVisible](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@MrVisible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrVisible)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2002, 7:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oregon-man-who-killed-his-family-hes-a-promise-keeper/145456/58 "2002-12-30T07:59:51Z")
**techchick68** , you might want to take a closer look at the Promise Keepers organization. It seems that they have some very close ties with Focus on the Family. Steve Farrar, popular lecturer at Promise Keepers’ gatherings, has CDs of his PK lectures for sale on the [Focus on the Family](http://www.family.org/resources/itempg.cfm?itemid=2975&sid=0&pid=0) label. James Dobson, Focus on the Family’s founder, donated money to help Promise Keepers get their start. As to the anti-gay sentiment… [From this page](http://www.cdsresearch.org/nation/nation3.html): > [@](#): > > Then in 1991, McCartney joined the advisory board of Colorado for Family Values, a statewide coalition of right-wing religious groups devoted to “educating Coloradans about the ‘gay’ lifestyle” and opposed to civil rights statutes protecting gays. The McCartney referred to is the founder of the Promise Keepers. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2002, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oregon-man-who-killed-his-family-hes-a-promise-keeper/145456/59 "2002-12-30T10:44:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SkipMagic \* > \*\*Well, I sure hope I did; otherwise, maybe, I ended up… \*\* …quoting something in a misleading way by truncating it. Yes, you ended up exactly that way. ---
**Author:** ![unclviny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/e274bd/32.png) [@unclviny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/unclviny)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2002, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oregon-man-who-killed-his-family-hes-a-promise-keeper/145456/60 "2002-12-30T13:29:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by beagledave \* > \*\*:rolleyes: \*\* Are you going to actually respond to me, or what?. unclviny [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oregon-man-who-killed-his-family-hes-a-promise-keeper/145456.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oregon-man-who-killed-his-family-hes-a-promise-keeper/145456.md?page=4)