# Oregon vs. Right-Wing Militias, Round 2
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oregon-vs-right-wing-militias-round-2/835899
**Category:** Politics & Elections
**Created:** [June 22, 2019, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oregon-vs-right-wing-militias-round-2/835899 "2019-06-22T18:22:30Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 3
### Author:  [@GESancMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GESancMan)
#### Post date: [June 25, 2019, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oregon-vs-right-wing-militias-round-2/835899/41 "2019-06-25T15:14:27Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#):
>
> You’ve misunderstood my point. I didn’t say there were more of them. I said they supported Trump in far greater numbers than in the west.
>
> I can understand why you were confused by the inartful way I said it, though.
Ah, got it. And no argument there. 🙂
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### Author:  [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)
#### Post date: [June 25, 2019, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oregon-vs-right-wing-militias-round-2/835899/42 "2019-06-25T15:16:33Z")
Does anyone have any specifics about the “possible militia threat” to the Oregon State Capitol? The article only says:
> [@](#):
>
> Oregon State Police, in a statement, said it has been “monitoring information throughout the day that indicates the safety of legislators, staff and citizen visitors could be compromised if certain threatened behaviors were realized.”
What are the “certain threatened behaviors”? And how were the threats communicated? By whom?
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### Author:  [@OttoDaFe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OttoDaFe)
#### Post date: [June 25, 2019, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oregon-vs-right-wing-militias-round-2/835899/43 "2019-06-25T19:42:30Z")
> [@Horatius](#):
>
> > [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#):
> >
> > The Constitution wasn’t properly ratified? That’s a new one to me. So, the last ~250 years of American history has been one big charade? Quite the procedure error.
>
> That’s a pretty common Sovereign Citizen argument, and there’s a lot of overlap between the SovCits and the militia movement.
>
> Go ahead and Google it, if you’re keen to waste a few hours and not a few brain cells.
There appear to be two schools of “thought” on the subject. Both hold that the Constitution was never ratified, making the current Federal system illegal; where they differ is that one holds that the Articles of Confederation are still in force, while the other holds that the Constitutional Convention voided them. In any event, what we have is a collection of “Sovereign States” which either are or are not loosely associated. So a Freeman on the Land is perfectly justified in claiming that he is a “citizen of [insert State name here] but not of the United States”.
What follows, at least to some of the more radical Militia types, is a paradox which requires an Orwellian level of doublethink to reconcile: that since the States are governed by constitutions patterned after the (nonexistent) Federal constitution, the States themselves do not really exist. Hence the idea that the county (parish/borough/township) is the highest government entity. And the headache.
(The above is based on my recollection of a well-lubricated, and occasionally heated, “discussion” in rural Flathead County, Montana, where the native population of whackadoodles had been augmented — if that’s the right word — by refugees from the [Aryan Nations](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aryan_Nations).)
(And apologies for perpetuating any highjack. But a little insight into the SovCit/Militia "mind"set may be helpful.)
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### Author:  [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)
#### Post date: [June 25, 2019, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oregon-vs-right-wing-militias-round-2/835899/44 "2019-06-25T23:20:59Z")
> [@Velocity](#):
>
> 1. Some people genuinely believe that climate change is a hoax.
> 2. Some people know climate change is real, but nonetheless don’t want to suffer penalties in forms of increased taxes or expenses, even if those would fight climate change.
> 3. Some people don’t want the opposing party to score a political victory.
Personally, I don’t think it’s about climate change.
Imagine if a black mayor was put in charge of a rural town in the deep south. No matter what he recommended, the people would oppose him because they don’t consider him fit to lead.
The gop in Oregon were threatening to leave over vaccination bills and gun control bills before leaving over a climate change bill. The bill in question isn’t the issue, the issue is that they consider anyone who isn’t them unqualified to lead and they view their authority as invalid.
If it weren’t a climate change bill it would’ve been something else.
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### Author:  [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)
#### Post date: [June 26, 2019, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oregon-vs-right-wing-militias-round-2/835899/45 "2019-06-26T00:42:00Z")
> [@Lumpy](#):
>
> Isn’t this report conflating two different things? The [del]threat[/del] mouthing off of a legislator; and the Oregon State Police _taking as_ a threat the announcement that some right-wing groups would participate in a protest march at the capitol? From what I’m reading, it was the state police that shut down the capitol, rather than “militias”.
>
> ETA: at some point shouldn’t it be questioned whether a threat exists solely in the mind of the person feeling threatened? Like an old white woman calling the police because two “gang members” (black males) moved into the house next door?
ETA: my response is dealing solely with the"nothing off" by the senator, not the capitol closing.
If the two black males in question threatened to shoot the old lady if she looked at them funny, yeah.
The senator said if police came after him, send heavily armed bachelors. Go ahead and tell a cop that. Walk up to him, tell him hey I’m going home now, and if you follow me, you best come heavily armed!
Report back.
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### Author:  [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)
#### Post date: [June 26, 2019, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oregon-vs-right-wing-militias-round-2/835899/46 "2019-06-26T01:53:31Z")
> [@raventhief](#):
>
> ETA: my response is dealing solely with the"nothing off" by the senator, not the capitol closing.
>
> If the two black males in question threatened to shoot the old lady if she looked at them funny, yeah.
>
> The senator said if police came after him, send heavily armed bachelors. Go ahead and tell a cop that. Walk up to him, tell him hey I’m going home now, and if you follow me, you best come heavily armed!
>
> Report back.
Fine, the Oregon state district attorney should look into filing charges of making terroristic threats. But until something actually happens my money is on it being hot air.
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### Author:  [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)
#### Post date: [June 26, 2019, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oregon-vs-right-wing-militias-round-2/835899/47 "2019-06-26T11:26:57Z")
Democrats caved.
> **[Oregon climate bill dead, top Senate Democrats say](https://www.oregonlive.com/politics/2019/06/oregons-top-senate-democrat-suggests-climate-bill-is-dead.html)**
>
> Senate President Peter Courtney, D-Salem, said Tuesday morning that the Democratic caucus lacks the votes to pass a controversial climate bill.
> [@](#):
>
> “As the person who counts the votes, my personal sense is that the votes were not there,” Burdick told reporters Tuesday afternoon. "I was personally one of the ones who wanted this bill on the floor, because I wanted to raise my hand and say ‘yes.’ And we did not get that opportunity because they walked out.”
As usual, A. R. Moxon has a [pretty insightful take](https://twitter.com/JuliusGoat/status/1143821165296668672) on this.
> [@](#):
>
> The Oregon GOP is, effectively, a terrorist organization.
>
> Losing elections? Cheat the election.
> Still lose? Break the election.
> STILL lose? Break the government.
> STILL lose? Threaten violence.
>
> That’s how government is done in Oregon now.
>
> When do we stop with this “both sides” nonsense?
>
> It’s one side. Authoritarian terrorists.
>
> Where in power, fascism.
>
> Where out of power, terrorism.
We need to stop pretending this is okay. But nobody with power seems to have the balls to actually do something about it. It’s really fucked up.
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### Author:  [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)
#### Post date: [June 26, 2019, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oregon-vs-right-wing-militias-round-2/835899/48 "2019-06-26T12:33:28Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#):
>
> Democrats caved.
>
> [Oregon climate bill dead, top Senate Democrats say - oregonlive.com](https://www.oregonlive.com/politics/2019/06/oregons-top-senate-democrat-suggests-climate-bill-is-dead.html)
They didn’t “cave”; they didn’t have the votes.
I hope they reintroduce the bill the moment the GOP comes back. Make them do it again, and again. Force them to shut down services. See how long everyone else in the state tolerates it – not long, I’d imagine.
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### Author:  [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)
#### Post date: [June 26, 2019, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oregon-vs-right-wing-militias-round-2/835899/49 "2019-06-26T13:04:01Z")
The idea that a governor can send out goons to capture legislators is All-Cool-Democracy, but resisting said goons is not to be applauded is a bit backwards for me.\* That said, I’d rather these idiots squabble like this than join together to bilk the hapless taxpayer. I wonder what the response would be if say the governor of Alabama send out his goons to round up Dem legislators for a vote on abortion.
\*yes I understand it is in the law to allow governor goon squads. Believe it or not people disagree with old laws allowing goon squads sometimes.
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### Author:  [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)
#### Post date: [June 26, 2019, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oregon-vs-right-wing-militias-round-2/835899/50 "2019-06-26T13:07:56Z")
> [@Chronos](#):
>
> When politicians take political positions you disagree with, the solution is to vote them out. When politicians threaten to murder the police, the solution is to arrest them and throw them in jail for a very long time.
What about when governors threaten to kidnap legislators?
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### Author:  [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)
#### Post date: [June 26, 2019, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oregon-vs-right-wing-militias-round-2/835899/51 "2019-06-26T13:53:55Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#):
>
> The idea that a governor can send out goons to capture legislators is All-Cool-Democracy, **but resisting said goons is not to be applauded is a bit backwards for me**.\* That said, I’d rather these idiots squabble like this than join together to bilk the hapless taxpayer. I wonder what the response would be if say the governor of Alabama send out his goons to round up Dem legislators for a vote on abortion.
> \*yes I understand it is in the law to allow governor goon squads. Believe it or not people disagree with old laws allowing goon squads sometimes.
You left off a bit in the bolded part: “with threats of deadly violence”. Your phrase should be “but resisting said goons with threats of deadly violence is not to be applauded is a bit backwards for me”, although I’m curious when duly-appointed law enforcement officers carrying out their lawful duty turned into “goons”, exactly? What happened to “just do what they say and sort it all out in court”? Isn’t that the GOP-preffered strategy that they tell others to use when dealing with disagreeable police officers? If not, what other people would you encourage to resist the police with deadly violence?
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### Author:  [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)
#### Post date: [June 26, 2019, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oregon-vs-right-wing-militias-round-2/835899/52 "2019-06-26T13:58:04Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#):
>
> What about when governors threaten to kidnap legislators?
I wasn’t aware that law enforcement doing things they were empowered to do was “kidnapping”; do you have a cite? I mean, think of all the people that police have “arrested” over the years; those people were actually being kidnapped!
:rolleyes:
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### Author:  [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)
#### Post date: [June 26, 2019, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oregon-vs-right-wing-militias-round-2/835899/53 "2019-06-26T14:20:54Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#):
>
> You left off a bit in the bolded part: “with threats of deadly violence”. Your phrase should be “but resisting said goons with threats of deadly violence is not to be applauded is a bit backwards for me”, although I’m curious when duly-appointed law enforcement officers carrying out their lawful duty turned into “goons”, exactly? What happened to “just do what they say and sort it all out in court”? Isn’t that the GOP-preffered strategy that they tell others to use when dealing with disagreeable police officers? If not, what other people would you encourage to resist the police with deadly violence?
Coppers have been goons for some time. When they behave like goons, they’re goons. Nothing magical about a title. I don’t know or care what the GOP strategy is. I don’t encourage anyone to tangle with the state and martyr themselves, but I acknowledge their right to resist, even if it is not advisable.
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#):
>
> I wasn’t aware that law enforcement doing things they were empowered to do was “kidnapping”; do you have a cite? I mean, think of all the people that police have “arrested” over the years; those people were actually being kidnapped!
>
> :rolleyes:
Yes.
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### Author:  [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)
#### Post date: [June 26, 2019, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oregon-vs-right-wing-militias-round-2/835899/54 "2019-06-26T15:48:13Z")
Credible threats against law enforcement officers need to be prosecuted, no matter who makes them.
This 1840s incident might be of interest: [Dorr Rebellion - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorr_Rebellion)
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### Author:  [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)
#### Post date: [June 26, 2019, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oregon-vs-right-wing-militias-round-2/835899/55 "2019-06-26T21:26:26Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#):
>
> Credible threats against law enforcement officers need to be prosecuted, no matter who makes them.
>
> This 1840s incident might be of interest: [Dorr Rebellion - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorr_Rebellion)
Dorr and his followers actually had a point: under the old system only “the propertied” (land owners) could vote; therefore the elected government represented landowners and others were neglected. The main point is that the system would never have spontaneously reformed because the legislature _had no institutional incentive to change_. Dorr and his followers had as strong a case as the revolutionaries back in 1776 had. In any event, the Dorr Rebellion was technically a failure: the Dorrites disbanded rather than attempt to fight a bloody revolution, and Dorr first fled the state and later was convicted and imprisoned. But it did have the effect of convincing the state government that reform was needed to prevent a resurgence, and the state constitution was changed to broaden the voting franchise.
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### Author:  [@SmartAleq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmartAleq)
#### Post date: [June 27, 2019, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oregon-vs-right-wing-militias-round-2/835899/56 "2019-06-27T01:40:35Z")
> [@asahi](#):
>
> They didn’t “cave”; they didn’t have the votes.
>
> I hope they reintroduce the bill the moment the GOP comes back. Make them do it again, and again. Force them to shut down services. See how long everyone else in the state tolerates it – not long, I’d imagine.
The 2019 session will be over at the end of this month. The state constitution sets limits on how long they can be in session–160 days in odd numbered years and 35 in even numbered years. So nobody will be in the legislature until about February next year and they’ll be gone again in March of '20 until January '21. So there’s no practical way to treat these shitbirds like the children refusing to eat their dinners they so closely resemble. Most of them will be up for reelection next year so there’s that I guess.
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### Author:  [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)
#### Post date: [June 27, 2019, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oregon-vs-right-wing-militias-round-2/835899/57 "2019-06-27T15:55:38Z")
This is impacting Reddit. [Reddit's The\_Donald Quarantine Causes Subreddit Drama and Ban Fear](https://www.newsweek.com/reddit-donald-quarantine-subreddit-drama-1446104)
> [@](#):
>
> On Wednesday, Reddit quarantined the pro-Trump subreddit The\_Donald, citing threats against the lives of politicians and police. In Reddit parlance, a quarantine isn’t an outright ban, but instead the institution of a warning before entering The\_Donald subreddit.
>
> “Recent behaviors including threats against the police and public figures is content that is prohibited by our violence policy,” a Reddit spokesperson said in a statement released to The Daily Beast. “As a result, we have actioned individual users and quarantined the subreddit.”
> [@](#):
>
> Long known as a hotbed of racist, misogynistic, islamophobic and antisemitic online discourse, Reddit found The\_Donald community crossed a line with repeated calls for violence against state officials in Oregon.
> [@](#):
>
> Comments on The\_Donald endorsing terrorist violence against lawmakers—including Governor Kate Brown—and/or a full-scaled uprising found wide support in the community. “None of this gets fixed without people picking up rifles,” one comment with 49 upvotes read. Another called for Portland and Eugene to be burnt to the ground, though far more common was the invocation of the Second Amendment, with gun violence, including “Vietcong style ambush” brought against fellow Oregonians described as “anti-American traitors” and “globalists.” Media Matters archived dozens of similar comments from the subreddit.
> [@](#):
>
> Reddit’s administrators have asked The\_Donald mods to “unambiguously communicate to your subscribers that violent content is unacceptable,” among a list of other reforms, after which Reddit will consider an appeal on the quarantine.
>
> A moderator of The\_Donald rebuffed the calls for reform, describing the quarantine as an attempt “to kill us before the 2020 election.”
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### Author:  [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)
#### Post date: [June 27, 2019, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oregon-vs-right-wing-militias-round-2/835899/58 "2019-06-27T16:23:06Z")
Does the Oregon constitution allow for the legislative session to be ended early but then re-started before the end of the year? So the total number of days in session would still be within the limits, but they’re not all contiguous? It seems to me like that would be the best solution: Close the legislature now, but then re-open it as soon as they can drag some of the spoiled children back.
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### Author:  [@SmartAleq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmartAleq)
#### Post date: [June 27, 2019, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oregon-vs-right-wing-militias-round-2/835899/59 "2019-06-27T19:05:24Z")
I think you might have to have a quorum to do that and, well…
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### Author:  [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)
#### Post date: [June 27, 2019, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oregon-vs-right-wing-militias-round-2/835899/60 "2019-06-27T21:22:25Z")
I think that when people mention a “second civil war” this is the kind of shit they’re referring to: white Christian nationalists in various corners of fly-over country engaging in judicial nullification and insurrection. The Bundy Clan episode was our warning, and it’s escalating into a kind of neo-confederate movement. And as much as I wish I could be optimistic about the whole thing, I’m not. Today’s Republican party has the same mentality to politics that Southern Democrats had in the 1870s, and that was a pretty nasty period in American history.
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