# O'Reilly to Iraq: Drop dead, we've got to re-elect Bush! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 8, 2004, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oreilly-to-iraq-drop-dead-weve-got-to-re-elect-bush/238939 "2004-04-08T13:02:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![TVeblen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/4bbf92/32.png) [@TVeblen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVeblen)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2004, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oreilly-to-iraq-drop-dead-weve-got-to-re-elect-bush/238939/61 "2004-04-08T23:40:31Z")
> [@GaWd](#): > > I’m not sure what defines optimal, either. I’m here, not in Iraq, or in young America. All I really meant was that despite growing tensions between the founding fathers and the mother country, and a looming war with said parent country, people weren’t running into the Continental Congress and blowing themselves up mid-speech. 🙂 > > Sam Gotcha and agreed, on all points. I’m not sure even the occupation/rebuilding of Germany and Japan after WWII are that apt as analogies. Both countries were thoroughly, decisively defeated in war. Unfortunately the analogies that seem to fit best are Viet Nam and the Soviet experience in Afghanistan. Not encouraging at all. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2004, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oreilly-to-iraq-drop-dead-weve-got-to-re-elect-bush/238939/62 "2004-04-09T01:35:55Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > And I? I am the Queen of Romania. _Oh, life is a glorious cycle of song, a medley of extemporanea…_ ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2004, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oreilly-to-iraq-drop-dead-weve-got-to-re-elect-bush/238939/63 "2004-04-09T01:36:48Z")
> [@UncleBeer](#): > > It would be way more accurate to say that it took about 13 years for democracy to appear in the U.S.—the period from the end of the Revolutionary War to the ratification of the Constitution. I don’t think I can agree that this is at all relevant to the case of Iraq. Revolutionary America differed vastly from Iraq in key respects. Britain, and by extension her colonies, had had in Parliament elements of democracy for centuries at that point. There was an ideal of representation ingrained in the culture, even if the House of Commons had not yet reached the level of political power it now enjoys. The US was also to a great extent socially homogenous - or at least, the enfranchised were, being as they were, propertied white anglo-saxon protestant men. Iraq has neither the proto-democratic tradition, nor the cultural homogeneity. I should think that under reasonably favourable conditions it should take at least one full generation or more to achieve a strong democracy in Iraq. Of course, a Potemkin version can probably be in place by June 30. ---
**Author:** ![Ale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@Ale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ale)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2004, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oreilly-to-iraq-drop-dead-weve-got-to-re-elect-bush/238939/64 "2004-04-09T02:57:49Z")
> [@TVeblen](#): > > As bad as the old system was, crafting a workable new system first must find at least some tenuous cohesion among the people who live under it. Otherwise it amounts to an prolonged, deathly, futile occupation. That has always been the serious problem, but one Bush Etc. underestimated _badly_. And that´s what I´ve said since the beggining of this monumental blunder, Iraq´s population wasn´t ready for democracy yet; once a population becomes united enough to threaten an opressive regime the time has come, the people must have a sense of belonging to a nation in the first place if everyone is out for their own it won´t work, the internal struggles will disintegrate the state sooner than later. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2004, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oreilly-to-iraq-drop-dead-weve-got-to-re-elect-bush/238939/65 "2004-04-09T04:48:00Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Gosh, [I wonder why the IRaqis don’t want you there?](http://www.iraqbodycount.net/names.htm) I don’t really know how to respond to that. I know they don’t want us there, and I don’t blame the friends and family of the people killed for being angry with us. However, we are there, and we need to find some way out of the mess we’re in, both for the sake of the American soldiers and the Iraqis, and we need to do it in some way that minimizes the death toll on both sides. In an ideal world, this would mean solving the grievances of every group of Iraqis and transforming the state into a liberal democracy where individual rights are protected and that is governed by the rule of law, because I believe that’s one of the best things that can happen to a country. I think liberal democracy is probably the best ideology that people have come up with so far, and that it’s America’s job, and has been since our country was founded, to encourage that ideology everywhere. However, it’s quite possible that that isn’t an option right now. But we need to do something to stop the terrible things happening every day (including most recently, the kidnapping of two Japanese aid workers, one Japanese journalist, a Georgian aid worker, a Palestinian aid worker, a Syrian Canadian aid worker, and eight South Korean missionaries.) I will point out that none of those kidnapped were from the United States or directly aiding the American occupation, but that they were all there to help the Iraqi people. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2004, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oreilly-to-iraq-drop-dead-weve-got-to-re-elect-bush/238939/66 "2004-04-09T05:06:30Z")
\>\> we need to do something to stop the terrible things happening every day The most terrible things happening every day is that American troops are killing Iraquis in large numbers. If the Americans would pack up and leave the country the killings of Iraqis by Americans would stop and that is the worst thing happening right now. Furthermore, the Iraqis would not have any special reason to kidnap foreigners and hold them as hostages while demanding the Americans get out. So the whole argument makes no sense. none. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2004, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oreilly-to-iraq-drop-dead-weve-got-to-re-elect-bush/238939/67 "2004-04-09T05:15:05Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > \>\> we need to do something to stop the terrible things happening every day > > The most terrible things happening every day is that American troops are killing Iraquis in large numbers. If the Americans would pack up and leave the country the killings of Iraqis by Americans would stop and that is the worst thing happening right now. Furthermore, the Iraqis would not have any special reason to kidnap foreigners and hold them as hostages while demanding the Americans get out. So the whole argument makes no sense. none. Well, except that if you pull out right now, you’re looking at civil war or worse (worse being intervention in said civil war by Turkey and/or Iran, and quite possibly region-wide conflagration). There are no right moves at this stage, only various wrong moves. ---
**Author:** ![Early\_Out](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Early\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Early_Out)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2004, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oreilly-to-iraq-drop-dead-weve-got-to-re-elect-bush/238939/68 "2004-04-09T05:19:29Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Surely, the landslide that sweeps Bush into re-election will usher in a golden age of global harmony, as the world showers approval on us, … And just what type of shower would that be, **luci**? Golden, you say? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![TVeblen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/4bbf92/32.png) [@TVeblen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVeblen)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2004, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oreilly-to-iraq-drop-dead-weve-got-to-re-elect-bush/238939/69 "2004-04-09T05:39:27Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > Well, except that if you pull out right now, you’re looking at civil war or worse (worse being intervention in said civil war by Turkey and/or Iran, and quite possibly region-wide conflagration). There are no right moves at this stage, only various wrong moves. It’s called knowing what the hell one’s going to do with the genie _before_ pulling the plug on the bottle. Knowing the precise nature and direction the force may take is impossible beforehand, but one should have at least a fair respect for the elemental forces unleashed. Scrambling after answers once the cork’s exploded is a loser’s proposition–for everybody concerned. I wanted, so badly, to belive my government had the neccessary wit, strength AND wisdom for their rash actions. T’ain’t so, and sadly–so sadly–no amount of bluster will make it so. The price for arrogant stupidity, no matter how naively well-intentioned, is so high for so many innocent, everyday people. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2004, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oreilly-to-iraq-drop-dead-weve-got-to-re-elect-bush/238939/70 "2004-04-09T05:54:12Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > Well, except that if you pull out right now, you’re looking at civil war or worse (worse being intervention in said civil war by Turkey and/or Iran, and quite possibly region-wide conflagration). There are no right moves at this stage, only various wrong moves. Yes and the US is responsible for having started this whole mess but, in any case, the fact that the Iraqis might fight is _no_ excuse for the USA to be there killing them. As far as stopping the violence _any_ solution is better. The UN could probably do better and, at least it has more legitimacy. The USA is not in Iraq to stop a civil war. The USA is in Iraq for its own interests. That is why it adamantly refuses to let go of the prey into which it has sunk it’s teeth. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2004, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oreilly-to-iraq-drop-dead-weve-got-to-re-elect-bush/238939/71 "2004-04-09T14:49:41Z")
> [@TVeblen](#): > > Gotcha and agreed, on all points. > I’m not sure even the occupation/rebuilding of Germany and Japan after WWII are that apt as analogies. Both countries were thoroughly, decisively defeated in war. Unfortunately the analogies that seem to fit best are Viet Nam and the Soviet experience in Afghanistan. > Not encouraging at all. Japan might be a good example, having had no experience with democracy before the war. Hirohito’s decision to become involved with the surrender, and the US decision to let him stay as emperor helped a lot. I’m not sure the US experience has much relevance, though. While we were colonies, they all had democratic institutions. Even the government under the Articles of Confederation was a democracy, more or less, certainly far more than Iraq ever was. Except for a few who might have wished to make Washington king, there was no argument about the US being a democracy (or republic, more accurately) just arguments over the details. This is far different from Iraq. The only thing I can see to do is to support Sistani in setting up a moderate Islamic republic, and hope there isn’t too much bloodshed. The current administration has no credibility to do anything, and certainly hasn’t shown the flexibility to change course. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2004, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oreilly-to-iraq-drop-dead-weve-got-to-re-elect-bush/238939/72 "2004-04-09T15:57:09Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > Hi, **Shodan**. How do you get “pull out” from “that is understimating the enemy and knowing nothing about the underlying cutural and political landscape.” Hi, **gobear**. I get “pull out” from the implication that Bush pulling out of Iraq would be “repeating the mistakes of Viet Nam”. **RTFirefly** posts a rant condeming O’Reilly for suggesting that Bush ought to pull out of Iraq. I don’t think pulling out of Viet Nam upon realizing that the South Vietnamese wouldn’t fight the Viet Cong on their own would necessarily have been a mistake. Neither does O’Reilly, if the situations are at all similar. I think it was just another “damned if you do, damned if you don’t” for Bush and the SDMB. If Bush pulls out, **RTF** will condemn him for doing so. If Bush does not, same thing. On the other hand, Bush shows no sign of wanting to cut and run from Iraq, so the whole discussion (and O’Reilly’s suggestions) are moot, at least at this point. N.B. I would like to thank **Captain Amazing** for a very clear analysis of what I think O’Reilly was really saying. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2004, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oreilly-to-iraq-drop-dead-weve-got-to-re-elect-bush/238939/73 "2004-04-09T16:22:36Z")
> [@](#): > > I get “pull out” from the implication that Bush pulling out of Iraq would be “repeating the mistakes of Viet Nam”. Which were defined for you in the exact same post in the very next clause, so I don’t get why you think I was advocating a pull-out–I’m not. > [@](#): > > RTFirefly posts a rant condeming O’Reilly for suggesting that Bush ought to pull out of Iraq. I don’t think pulling out of Viet Nam upon realizing that the South Vietnamese wouldn’t fight the Viet Cong on their own would necessarily have been a mistake. Neither does O’Reilly, if the situations are at all similar. Hmm, I see you as a die-hard Curtis LeMay type, but I could be wrong. > [@](#): > > I think it was just another “damned if you do, damned if you don’t” for Bush and the SDMB. If Bush pulls out, RTF will condemn him for doing so. If Bush does not, same thing. I think pulling out now would be a ghastly error. We need to make an deal with Sistani to turn on Sadr (who he hates anyway) and promise to leave Iraq in exchange for setting up an Islamic republic with a secular consulting body and proportionate representation for the Sunni minority. But we absolutely cannot cut and run right now ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2004, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oreilly-to-iraq-drop-dead-weve-got-to-re-elect-bush/238939/74 "2004-04-10T02:39:51Z")
> [@Philster](#): > > I tend to be conservative, but that doesn’t mean I align myslef with Bush. \*\* If you are a conservative, you should loathe the operation in Iraq \*\*. Taking Iraq for what it is, it’s a on-going mess that should have never started in the first place. It’s wasted resources. > > All the money and resources could have been poured into a serious campaign against militant Islam, the people who want all Americans dead no matter what, at all costs without rhyme/reason. We can’t bargain away our status of infidel!! > > Here we sit in Iraq, with a great chance of actually **creating a whole new country that could fester with militant Islam, when countries that continue to be breeding grounds for militant Islam get a pass!"** > > Hey, GOP, you can prefer the conservative approach to economics, society and foreign policy AND still get in here and condem the decision to waste our war effort in Iraq while our mortal enemy - militant Islam - gets a pass. > > Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia: Breeding grounds for those who want all Americans D- E- A- D, and we got our boys in Iraq? > > At this point, we need to be \*\*brutally critical of any fucknut who does not know who the enemy is, as that enemy builds his army, rallies his troops, gathers resources and seeks the destruction of the US. At this point, the only thing you can say is that Bush had the balls to do something, but that what he chose to do was just about the dumbest fucking thing going. \*\* > > YES, Slam Bush, \*\*and be prepared when the next President - a democrat - gets the U.S.’ ass kicked all over the globe. Right now we have the poison that is Bush and Rumsfeld and their wasted fucking IRaq effort, but we won’t have the guranteed fucking saviour if Kerry gets in. SOMEBODY BETTER FIGURE OUT WHO THIS FUCKING WAR IS AGAINST. > > KNOW THE ENEMY AND DEAL WITH THEM FOR GOD’S SAKE.\*\* These whiny liberals try to act like I’m the only conservative willing to call bulllshit on politicians who happen to belong to the same party I do. GO **Philster**!! ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2004, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oreilly-to-iraq-drop-dead-weve-got-to-re-elect-bush/238939/75 "2004-04-10T02:42:08Z")
> [@bordelond](#): > > Perhaps this is it. IIRC, the no-fly zone was largely unpopulated save for scattered Iraqi surface-to-air batteries. Perhaps there were Kurds in the area, as well. IFAICT, the no-fly zones included entire, well populated cities like Basra ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2004, 7:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oreilly-to-iraq-drop-dead-weve-got-to-re-elect-bush/238939/76 "2004-04-10T07:16:12Z")
> [@SimonX](#): > > These whiny liberals try to act like I’m the only conservative willing to call bulllshit on politicians who happen to belong to the same party I do. You’re not, but you’re still the minority voice in your party. Unfortunately. ---
**Author:** ![Boo\_Boo\_Foo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@Boo\_Boo\_Foo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boo_Boo_Foo)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2004, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oreilly-to-iraq-drop-dead-weve-got-to-re-elect-bush/238939/77 "2004-04-10T11:43:31Z")
> [@GaWd](#): > > Then I want you to realize how many years it took for us to become the world’s first and largest Democracy. Then I want you to compare that timeline to Iraq’s timeline. I’m almost 100% certain you’ve made this claim before, and I’m almost 100% certain I’ve corrected you. Britain’s House of Parliament was being voted into office through open democratic elections as early as 1623, and after the Cromwell era was effectively a monarchy based democracy long, long before the USA even came close to imagining itself into existence. The head of state remained the monarch, but the CEO was inarguably the Prime Minister. Further, public elections were being held in Holland and Sweden long before 1776 as well. And the word “democracy” itself is Greek, which would imply that the concept of democracy goes back a looooooooooooooooong way, don’t you think? It just bugs the shit out of me that so many Americans nowadays willfully choose to reinvent history to suit their claims of superior self-invention. I’m not saying all Americans do it - but enough do it to be REALLY FUCKING ANNOYING. Granted, the US Constitution is a fine and noble document, but let’s not stretch the truth here. The Founding Fathers didn’t invent much which wasn’t already being practiced somewhere in some part of the world - they merely refined already existing concepts to meet their needs to break the shackles of Imperial British Rule. And even then, it was a shaky thing for a long time. The efforts of Thomas Jefferson are probably singularly the most important thing that prevented the Constitution from sliding into the hands of becoming an oligarchy. But the concept of a Federal State which controlled member states existed prior to 1776. The USA did NOT, I repeat NOT invent this concept. Nor did it invent public voting. And the Roman Empire Senate proves conclusively that the USA also did not invent the concept of a non-monarch being either a country’s CEO or Head of State. Ergo, the USA is not the world’s first democracy. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2004, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oreilly-to-iraq-drop-dead-weve-got-to-re-elect-bush/238939/78 "2004-04-10T12:09:04Z")
> [@Boo Boo Foo](#): > > And even then, it was a shaky thing for a long time. The efforts of Thomas Jefferson are probably singularly the most important thing that prevented the Constitution from sliding into… becoming an oligarchy. The current administration is doing its level best to reverse Jefferson’s efforts. Working out pretty well, so far. ---
**Author:** ![GaWd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f08c70/32.png) [@GaWd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaWd)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2004, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oreilly-to-iraq-drop-dead-weve-got-to-re-elect-bush/238939/79 "2004-04-10T16:05:42Z")
> [@Boo Boo Foo](#): > > I’m almost 100% certain you’ve made this claim before, and I’m almost 100% certain I’ve corrected you. Nope, and nope. > [@](#): > > Further, public elections were being held in Holland and Sweden long before 1776 as well. And the word “democracy” itself is Greek, which would imply that the concept of democracy goes back a looooooooooooooooong way, don’t you think?..It just bugs the shit out of me that so many Americans nowadays willfully choose to reinvent history to suit their claims of superior self-invention. I’m not saying all Americans do it - but enough do it to be REALLY FUCKING ANNOYING. > … > Granted, the US Constitution is a fine and noble document, but let’s not stretch the truth here. The Founding Fathers didn’t invent much which wasn’t already being practiced somewhere in some part of the world - they merely refined already existing concepts to meet their needs to break the shackles of Imperial British Rule. It was an honest miss-step in language, and I realized it as soon as I read it upon posting. I was wondering if I’d be given the benefit of the doubt and be raked over the coals or not. > [@](#): > > And even then, it was a shaky thing for a long time. The efforts of Thomas Jefferson are probably singularly the most important thing that prevented the Constitution from sliding into the hands of becoming an oligarchy. But the concept of a Federal State which controlled member states existed prior to 1776. The USA did NOT, I repeat NOT invent this concept. Nor did it invent public voting. And the Roman Empire Senate proves conclusively that the USA also did not invent the concept of a non-monarch being either a country’s CEO or Head of State. And this paragraph above is nearly my entire point. We established a democracy from the ashes of Britain’s rule. After that, it was more than a little shaky, coming close to civil war several times before getting worked out. TJ is definitely our hero. > [@](#): > > Ergo, the USA is not the world’s first democracy. See above. Sam ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2004, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oreilly-to-iraq-drop-dead-weve-got-to-re-elect-bush/238939/80 "2004-04-10T22:00:04Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > **RTFirefly** posts a rant condeming O’Reilly for suggesting that Bush ought to pull out of Iraq. Wrong. I posted a rant condemning O’Reilly for suggesting that Bush ought to pull out of Iraq _in order to save his ass this November_, rather than _for reasons having to do with whether we can positively affect how the aftereffects of our invasion play out in Iraq_. That’s the loathsome part. They didn’t invite us in; we decided on our own to rescue the Iraqis from Saddam. If O’Reilly had reached the conclusion that nothing the U.S. did would make a difference in how our ‘rescue’ played out for them, then by that logic there would be no point in our staying around a minute longer. I might argue with his logic, but certainly not his motivation. But he didn’t say any such thing. He said we should leave because if we stayed, Bush might lose the election on account of Iraq. So his call on whether to stay or go was based on a value system that put the success or failure of his candidate at the polls ahead of the fate of 25 million Iraqis. The conservatives keep on talking about how “character counts”. What sort of character is reflected here? A loathsome, reprehensible one, that’s what kind. > [@](#): > > I think it was just another “damned if you do, damned if you don’t” for Bush and the SDMB. If Bush pulls out, **RTF** will condemn him for doing so. If Bush does not, same thing. Hardly. But I will demand of them that they set their course by what they’ve claimed was their motivation going in: to liberate Iraq, and see them through to a better day. With no WMDs and no Saddam-al Qaeda connection, the liberation of the Iraqi people is the last reason standing. And if we can’t liberate them, we at least don’t want to leave them worse off than before we invaded, **do we?** If Bush determines that we can’t do a thing to rescue the Iraqis from civil war and the collapse of anything resembling government, that no matter what we do, we’re more a part of the problem than part of the solution, then it’s time to go. (FWIW, I think we’ve either reached that point, or are rapidly nearing it. If next week is like last week, there will just be too much to undo that will be undoable.) But as long as he believes we can bring them through to, not even democracy, but a state of civil order whose stability will outlast our presence there, then he’s a hypocrite if he cuts and runs. Bush shows no sign of leaving, of course; instead, he’s making war on the people we’re supposedly there to liberate. But O’Reilly’s morally loathsome for the reasons I’ve stated. It has nothing to do with _whether_ he feels we should stay or go; it’s all about the _why_. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oreilly-to-iraq-drop-dead-weve-got-to-re-elect-bush/238939.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oreilly-to-iraq-drop-dead-weve-got-to-re-elect-bush/238939.md?page=5)