# Organ Donation and Ethics **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 2, 2012, 8:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organ-donation-and-ethics/614529 "2012-03-02T08:24:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2012, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organ-donation-and-ethics/614529/41 "2012-03-02T19:49:42Z")
**Marley** , can you please address this question? > [@erislover](#): > > Earlier in the thread, a proposal put forward was that organs could be sold, but individuals on a transplant list could not buy them. Then we would increase the number of donations without allowing the rich to crowd out the poor by shifting themselves around the list. This seems like a totally innocuous change that would increase the number of lives saved. Would you support this measure? ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2012, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organ-donation-and-ethics/614529/42 "2012-03-02T19:50:33Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > As I said: this makes people in need organ banks for people with more money. I think “victimization” is a fair description. > This makes no sense. Organ donation is legal. What’s outlawed is organ trafficking. Who is dying because organ trafficking is their only hope? The problem is a lack of people donating, and that can be addressed other ways. I’m not opposed to paying people to register as donors, but I don’t support putting their organs up for bid in a direct transaction that prioritizes the needs of people with more money. Paying a willing person more for something than what they value it as, can no way be said to be victimization without rendering that word meaningless. The number of organs donated is X and the number of organs that would be donated if people were allowed to sell them is X+Y. Y is then equal to the number of people who die because of the ban on selling organs. Almost 4,000 people die every year because of a lack of donated kidneys. Once a price was established those without the money to pay themselves could do fundraisers or turn to charities. There is no reason anyone would have to go without a kidney. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2012, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organ-donation-and-ethics/614529/43 "2012-03-02T19:51:55Z")
> [@spankthecrumpet](#): > > Obviously not very easily because otherwise it would have been I think it has been, actually. [There are now 100 million registered organ donors in the U.S., which is an increase of 45 percent since 2006.](http://donatelife.net/donate-life-america-announces-100-millionth-organ-eye-and-tissue-donor-registered-in-the-u-s/) So it sounds like things have improved a great deal. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2012, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organ-donation-and-ethics/614529/44 "2012-03-02T19:56:23Z")
So… can we have your liver? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2012, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organ-donation-and-ethics/614529/45 "2012-03-02T20:00:19Z")
Since I’m an organ donor, you or someone like you can have my liver when I’m done with it. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2012, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organ-donation-and-ethics/614529/46 "2012-03-02T20:05:00Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Again, I fail to see the mystery here. I don’t object to hospitals and doctors being paid for their work. I object to people buying organs from each other because I think it will lead to people being victimized when they’re in financial need and create a less equitable medical system. I am under two impressions. One impression is that poor people already are crowded out by rich in terms of organ transplants because organ transplants already cost money, even without organ sales. The other is that the act of profiting on organ transplants is somehow abhorrent to you. But the second is now revealed to be a mistake of mine, as you have no problem with people making a profit on organ transplants or donation… as long as it isn’t the donors. If you make the plastic boxes to transplant organs, that’s ok. If you have a patent on anti-rejection drugs, that’s ok. If you live in a mansion and drive a Bentley from your salary as a transplant doctor, that’s ok. But if you’re poor and have a kidney you don’t need as much as what it would sell for, well, tough luck bub. When you die from exposure or starvation, we’ll take it then. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2012, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organ-donation-and-ethics/614529/47 "2012-03-02T20:07:26Z")
> [@erislover](#): > > I am under two impressions. One impression is that poor people already are crowded out by rich in terms of organ transplants because organ transplants already cost money, even without organ sales. Assuming you have a cite for this, the answer is fixing the health care system, not having cash-strapped people sell their organs. ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2012, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organ-donation-and-ethics/614529/48 "2012-03-02T20:10:51Z")
It is entirely possible that organ transplants are generally free. If you think this is the case, and want a cite to the contrary, then I am willing to stipulate that they are free for the sake of discussion, because that really is irrelevant to either of our positions. ---
**Author:** ![spankthecrumpet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a87d85/32.png) [@spankthecrumpet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spankthecrumpet)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2012, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organ-donation-and-ethics/614529/49 "2012-03-02T20:11:31Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I think it has been, actually. [There are now 100 million registered organ donors in the U.S., which is an increase of 45 percent since 2006.](http://donatelife.net/donate-life-america-announces-100-millionth-organ-eye-and-tissue-donor-registered-in-the-u-s/) So it sounds like things have improved a great deal. From a very low base, although that is quite surprising. But those are organs from dead people which is less relevant. If you want to increase the number of dead people’s organs around for transplant, encourage more motor cycling 🙂 - and make relatives who won’t donate the dead person’s organs social pariahs - these people really are disgusting and once again it’s religion to blame. Finn, No one would want my liver ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2012, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organ-donation-and-ethics/614529/50 "2012-03-02T20:19:39Z")
> [@erislover](#): > > It is entirely possible that organ transplants are generally free. Your claim was that poorer people are already being crowded out of the system. ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2012, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organ-donation-and-ethics/614529/51 "2012-03-02T20:35:17Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Your claim was that poorer people are already being crowded out of the system. I was under such an impression, yes. I seem to recall this being a salient feature of arguments for socialized medicine. (Which I support. Not socialized insurance, but socialized healthcare.) But if you think I am wrong on this point, I am not even willing to argue it. Rich and poor have equal access to transplants now, there is no disparity in healthcare, if you wish. I really don’t care what the setup is, honestly, with respect to this discussion. I should not have even mentioned it. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2012, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organ-donation-and-ethics/614529/52 "2012-03-02T20:40:05Z")
I said I assumed you had a cite and that any problem on that score should be dealt with through fixes to the health care system, not organ trafficking. Still, that’s some quality sarcasm and strawmanning and goofiness. Truly excellent! ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2012, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organ-donation-and-ethics/614529/53 "2012-03-02T20:42:50Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I said I assumed you had a cite and that any problem on that score should be dealt with through fixes to the health care system, not organ trafficking. Well, that’s a remarkably astute position, that access to healthcare should not be corrected by permitting organ sales, but should be corrected by adjusting access to healthcare. Pip pip. I will ask for the last time, would you be ok with a proposition which allowed people to sell their organs to the abstract medical establishment, so long as those organs could not be purchased by people on the waiting list, and that such organs only went to people on the list? Feel free to ignore it again, of course. I don’t want to be too pushy. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2012, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organ-donation-and-ethics/614529/54 "2012-03-02T21:02:43Z")
> [@erislover](#): > > I will ask for the last time, would you be ok with a proposition which allowed people to sell their organs to the abstract medical establishment, so long as those organs could not be purchased by people on the waiting list, and that such organs only went to people on the list? No, I wouldn’t. ---
**Author:** ![spankthecrumpet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a87d85/32.png) [@spankthecrumpet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spankthecrumpet)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2012, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organ-donation-and-ethics/614529/55 "2012-03-02T21:06:27Z")
Why? ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2012, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organ-donation-and-ethics/614529/56 "2012-03-02T23:10:41Z")
I’d like to see more publicity given to exchanging kidneys. Kidney exchanges are another way to go to the head of the line, and there are at least six companies working to make links between motivated donors. The simplest exchange is a paired exchange. Say Bob needs a kidney and his brother, Bill, is willing to donate one. But Bill isn’t a match for Bob. Bill can offer to donate his kidney to an exchange company/program, which matches Bob/Bill to Sally, who is willing to donate for her father Dan. Sally isn’t a match for her father, but she is a match for Bob. And, fortunately, Bill is a match for her father. The exchange company charges a fee to oversee the paired donations, but with an average wait of five years for a flat donation, it’s usually worth it. [Here is a recent NYT article about it.](http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/19/health/lives-forever-linked-through-kidney-transplant-chain-124.html?_r=1) Most exchanges aren’t paired, but exchanges among 3 to 5 donor/recipient pairs. The article traces a record-breaking 30/30 exchange. From the article: > [@](#): > > Congress amended the National Organ Transplant Act to clarify that paired exchanges do not violate federal laws against selling organs. > [@](#): > > Computer models suggest that an additional 2,000 to 4,000 transplants could be achieved each year if Americans knew more about such programs and if there were a nationwide pool of all eligible donors and recipients. The article also mentions that kidneys from live donors last longer after transplant than kidneys from cadavers do. The company featured in the article specializes in ‘domino chains’ of donations, rather than trying to make circular exchanges. They leverage a donor willing to donate to anyone at all into a chain that ends with a recipient that has no donor. ---
**Author:** ![Sandwich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/22d042/32.png) [@Sandwich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sandwich)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2012, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organ-donation-and-ethics/614529/57 "2012-03-03T07:35:55Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > Banning something that could help the poor, and help save thousands of lives because of some strange notion of fairness seems evil and monstrous to me I agree. So the obvious solution is to legislate that the government owns all corpses and will extract as many usable body parts as it can and provide them to the needy without charge (as it should for all medical needs). Or is this another situation where selfishness and squeamishness trumps compassion and solidarity, but the free market must be allowed to deliver a partial solution for the rich? ---
**Author:** ![Cyros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a698b9/32.png) [@Cyros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyros)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2012, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organ-donation-and-ethics/614529/58 "2012-03-03T13:04:33Z")
> [@Sandwich](#): > > I agree. So the obvious solution is to legislate that the government owns all corpses and will extract as many usable body parts as it can and provide them to the needy without charge (as it should for all medical needs). > > Or is this another situation where selfishness and squeamishness trumps compassion and solidarity, but the free market must be allowed to deliver a partial solution for the rich? In this situation, where so many lives are in the balance, I think it is unreasonable to wait for death. The government should type and match all people and mandate live donations where needed. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organ-donation-and-ethics/614529.md?page=2)