# Organ donation is switching to opt-out in the UK **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [September 11, 2019, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organ-donation-is-switching-to-opt-out-in-the-uk/840063 "2019-09-11T19:34:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Unreconstructed\_Man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/76d3ee/32.png) [@Unreconstructed\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unreconstructed_Man)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2019, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organ-donation-is-switching-to-opt-out-in-the-uk/840063/101 "2019-09-14T15:19:10Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > A donation", by definition, is not contingent on what one has done in the past. You’re basically suggesting that unless someone has personally fed and housed the homeless, they should be allowed to go hungry if they become homeless themselves. Not quite. What I’m suggesting is more akin to saying “If you make a point of refusing to help the homeless, then it’s a bit rich to expect people to give you money if you’re homeless”. Personally, I don’t see anything morally wrong with that. > [@Smapti](#): > > I am not aware of medical institutions that perform organ transplants for free. Are you? I’m from the UK. There’s one about a ten minute walk from my house. > [@Smapti](#): > > Your argument for opt-out is that it increases organ availability. > > So, therefore, you’d have even better availability if there’s no option at all and everyone is automatically a donor no matter what. > > And once it’s assumed that everyone’s organs are up for grabs, well, if one person’s parts can save three lives, then it’s simply selfish of them to keep them to themselves, aren’t they? They should be encouraged to give up their own life for the needs of the many. > > And once that’s acceptable, well, why ask for someone’s permission before euthanizing them to save others, especially if that person is far more valuable to society? Surely President Trump’s life is more valuable than that of some blue collar schlub who’s too lazy and stubborn to realize that his organs are destined for a greater purpose. I’m sorry, but this is just crazy. Just because I support _one_ measure to increase organ supply, you think I should support _every conceivable_ measure as well? Why? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2019, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organ-donation-is-switching-to-opt-out-in-the-uk/840063/102 "2019-09-14T16:51:59Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > That’s _already_ how opting in is done in every state I’ve lived in. When you’re filling out your form to get or renew your ID/license, you fill in the yes or the no on the “Do you wish to be an organ donor?” question. Read Thaler about the power of defaults. How easy it is has not much to do with it. Signing up for a 401K when you started work was easy also, but making it a default increased the participation rate a ton. But they found that making the minimum deduction the default reduced the amount contributed because people who took 6% as the normal amount chose the default, 4%, instead. The statistics from Europe show that most people who aren’t donors by default would have no problem becoming donors if donation were the default. Since they aren’t harmed by donation, and lives are saved, that’s the obvious way to go. And your images of mad surgeons chopping up people for profit just shows that you’ve watched way too many Frankenstein movies. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2019, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organ-donation-is-switching-to-opt-out-in-the-uk/840063/103 "2019-09-14T16:55:25Z")
> [@Unreconstructed\_Man](#): > > IMO, absolutely not. If you have a valid reason for not donating (basically, anything apart from “I don’ wanna!”) then you should be eligible. I just want to try and weed out the Smaptis of the world who’d gladly take a donor organ but wouldn’t deign to donate their own and pay it forward. Some people have religious qualms about donating. Stupid, for sure, but if that is an issue you’re going to have a shitstorm on your hands. If donating would become the default we’d have plenty of potential donors and no reason to restrict choice. So I’m pro-choice in this, even though I’ve opted in. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2019, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organ-donation-is-switching-to-opt-out-in-the-uk/840063/104 "2019-09-14T17:30:48Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Some people have religious qualms about donating. Those people can and should opt out. Their faith communities should get involved in this and make sure all the community members know that their interpretation of the faith forbids organ donation, and know what to do in order to opt out of it. The rest of us can stay in the donor pool, hoping that our organs will not become available until they’re too old and worn-out to be any use, but recognizing that if we **do** unfortunately end up in an organ-donor situation then we’d want some other person(s) to be able to benefit from that. ---
**Author:** ![TimeWinder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bcef8e/32.png) [@TimeWinder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TimeWinder)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2019, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organ-donation-is-switching-to-opt-out-in-the-uk/840063/105 "2019-09-14T17:36:27Z")
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**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2019, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organ-donation-is-switching-to-opt-out-in-the-uk/840063/106 "2019-09-14T18:46:53Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Those people can and should opt out. Their faith communities should get involved in this and make sure all the community members know that their interpretation of the faith forbids organ donation, and know what to do in order to opt out of it. > > The rest of us can stay in the donor pool, hoping that our organs will not become available until they’re too old and worn-out to be any use, but recognizing that if we **do** unfortunately end up in an organ-donor situation then we’d want some other person(s) to be able to benefit from that. Penalizing opting out would be a problem because of the religious issue. And it is a good time to link to what Dr. John Prine [says about this issue:](https://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/johnprine/pleasedontburyme.html) > [@](#): > > Please don’t bury me > Down in that cold cold ground > No, I’d druther have “em” cut me up > And pass me all around > Throw my brain in a hurricane > And the blind can have my eyes > And the deaf can take both of my ears > If they don’t mind the size My sentiments exactly, except that my ears don’t flap. But I do agree that they should give my knees to the needy. ---
**Author:** ![needscoffee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/needscoffee/32/1076_2.png) [@needscoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/needscoffee)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2019, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organ-donation-is-switching-to-opt-out-in-the-uk/840063/107 "2019-09-14T19:09:47Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Penalizing opting out would be a problem because of the religious issue. People opting out for religious reasons would be just as opposed to receiving donated organs as they are to donating organs. ---
**Author:** ![needscoffee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/needscoffee/32/1076_2.png) [@needscoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/needscoffee)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2019, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organ-donation-is-switching-to-opt-out-in-the-uk/840063/108 "2019-09-14T19:11:25Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Whenever this comes up I always wonder where people who _can’t_ donate - cancer history, some viral disease, other anomaly - would stand in such a system? Unable to contribute means you can’t get on the list? They can still opt in, even if their organs turn out to be not actually usable. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2019, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organ-donation-is-switching-to-opt-out-in-the-uk/840063/109 "2019-09-14T19:18:06Z")
I frankly don’t give a shit if someone opts out for religious reasons, because the idea squicks them out or because the full moon is on Capricorn retrograde with Aquarius on a field of pink unicorns. It’s their right to choose what to do. There’s societies which have decided that donation is the default, others that have decided you need papers, some where the opinions of relatives are taken into account absent paperwork, others where if it’s not in writing it doesn’t matter what anybody says. Ideally? Ideally there would be no opting either way because donations wouldn’t be needed… ideally, I want my flying car and my teleporter. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2019, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organ-donation-is-switching-to-opt-out-in-the-uk/840063/110 "2019-09-14T19:23:58Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Whenever this comes up I always wonder where people who _can’t_ donate - cancer history, some viral disease, other anomaly - would stand in such a system? Unable to contribute means you can’t get on the list? Changes to technology mean that people who didn’t use to be eligible now are; sometimes, for organs which weren’t transplantable just a couple of decades ago. As an old song says, “science advances so quickly it is totally barbaric”. Many people who would have been eligible if they’d died in a car crash end up not being because of the circumstances of their death: which organs will or will not be eligible when any of us dies is not something that can be determined the minute we sign up. So, anybody who wants to sign up should just sign up and eventually Lady Luck will throw the dice, like she does for all of us. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2019, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organ-donation-is-switching-to-opt-out-in-the-uk/840063/111 "2019-09-14T20:54:15Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > The thing is that, if we can get more people involved in the system, all of this could be moot because we’d be far less likely to end up with organ shortages. Color me skeptical on that point, too. It’s not enough to just be dead, a prospective organ donor needs to have died in a manner that leaves their organs intact will killing the person. They also need to be found soon enough that their body can be effectively put on life support until their organs can be harvested. That’s a small minority of deaths right there. THEN you have to match donor with recipient. It is entirely possible that you could have a viable organ that matches no needy would-be recipient. So yes, going to opt-out will make for a shorter waiting list, but you’ll still have a waiting list and you’ll still have some people dying before a match can be found. ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2019, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organ-donation-is-switching-to-opt-out-in-the-uk/840063/112 "2019-09-15T21:56:35Z")
The comments in this thread are more melodramatic than the reality. The purpose of opt-out is to increase the discussion and likelihood of donation. But in practice, nothing would be likely be taken without readdressing the point with the patient before dying, if possible. (You are currently listed as an organ donor. Is that something you are still interested in?). It would also likely be readdressed with the family, ideally before death, but afterwards as well. (Mr. Slartibartfast expressed a wish to donate his eyes. We will honour his wish unless the family have any objections). Patients and families can make any decision they want, and change their minds at any time, for any reason. But they can also receive a significant amount of closure and satisfaction from a donation, and this can give comfort in what are sometimes distressing circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organ-donation-is-switching-to-opt-out-in-the-uk/840063/113 "2019-09-16T05:35:30Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > That’s _already_ how opting in is done in every state I’ve lived in. When you’re filling out your form to get or renew your ID/license, you fill in the yes or the no on the “Do you wish to be an organ donor?” question. And now it’ll be the opposite – do you wish NOT to be an organ donor? See, easy peasy! ---
**Author:** ![Teuton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/teuton/32/3864_2.png) [@Teuton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Teuton)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 7:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organ-donation-is-switching-to-opt-out-in-the-uk/840063/114 "2019-09-16T07:55:31Z")
Does anyone know if, in the UK system actually under discussion, there needs to be an actual decision made? I’m in the UK and renew my license every ten years, so I’m not sure that’s a viable time to ask the question. I suspect that it is that the assumption will be that you will donate unless you have taken the effort to specifically Opt Out. Perhaps you can get a card for your wallet. All to the good in my opinion, although I wouldn’t be behind any scheme that denied organs to people who had opted out. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 8:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organ-donation-is-switching-to-opt-out-in-the-uk/840063/115 "2019-09-16T08:47:05Z")
@Teuton: your questions answered: [https://www.organdonation.nhs.uk/helping-you-to-decide/about-organ-donation/faq/what-is-the-opt-out-system/](https://www.organdonation.nhs.uk/helping-you-to-decide/about-organ-donation/faq/what-is-the-opt-out-system/) [https://www.organdonation.nhs.uk/register-your-decision/](https://www.organdonation.nhs.uk/register-your-decision/) ---
**Author:** ![Teuton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/teuton/32/3864_2.png) [@Teuton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Teuton)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organ-donation-is-switching-to-opt-out-in-the-uk/840063/116 "2019-09-16T10:43:00Z")
So, as I suspected, if there is no record of a choice you have “deemed consent” given. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 10:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organ-donation-is-switching-to-opt-out-in-the-uk/840063/117 "2019-09-16T10:47:08Z")
> [@Teuton](#): > > All to the good in my opinion, although I wouldn’t be behind any scheme that denied organs to people who had opted out. While I 100% support making organ donation opt-out, and am an organ donor myself, I’m also 100% against any sorta “scheme” to punish non-donors. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 10:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organ-donation-is-switching-to-opt-out-in-the-uk/840063/118 "2019-09-16T10:47:53Z")
> [@Teuton](#): > > So, as I suspected, if there is no record of a choice you have “deemed consent” given. That’s pretty much the definition of “opt out.” ---
**Author:** ![Teuton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/teuton/32/3864_2.png) [@Teuton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Teuton)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 10:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organ-donation-is-switching-to-opt-out-in-the-uk/840063/119 "2019-09-16T10:55:21Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > That’s pretty much the definition of “opt out.” It is, and it’s how I expected it to work (and how I want it to work, lest there be any doubt), but earlier talk in the thread was about regularly asking you on a driving license form or similar, and not acting on it if you never got asked. ---
**Author:** ![BwanaBob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bwanabob/32/2985_2.png) [@BwanaBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BwanaBob)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2019, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organ-donation-is-switching-to-opt-out-in-the-uk/840063/120 "2019-09-17T16:54:45Z")
Why stop with organs? Why not mandate annual blood donation too? Don’t donate blood? Go to the end of the list if you need a transfusion. Not a good idea, punishing non-donors. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organ-donation-is-switching-to-opt-out-in-the-uk/840063.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organ-donation-is-switching-to-opt-out-in-the-uk/840063.md?page=7)