# Organ Donation Should be Automatic! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 11, 2005, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organ-donation-should-be-automatic/284224 "2005-01-11T16:04:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![SpaceDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spacedog/32/9932_2.png) [@SpaceDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpaceDog)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2005, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organ-donation-should-be-automatic/284224/61 "2005-01-11T18:10:27Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > So just because a man has a drivers license, he should automatically be subjected to your scheme? Why not just let people voluntarily offer their organs for donation if that’s what they want to do? Because, sadly, a lot (most?) people are lazy fucks and they’ll not go out of their way to do something to help others (opt-in). They will however do something to help themselves (opt-out). I know there are lots of people, me included, that have made the effort to opt-in but lots of people who would do so haven’t _quite_ got round to it and maybe never will. SD ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2005, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organ-donation-should-be-automatic/284224/62 "2005-01-11T18:10:55Z")
As I understand it, someone who is actively living a healthier life will be placed higher on the organ donation list than someone who’s addicted to drugs, smokes, drinks, that sort of thing. Sure, they may have gotten themselves into their situation on their own, but unless they’ve cleaned up, they aren’t going to get the parts they need. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2005, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organ-donation-should-be-automatic/284224/63 "2005-01-11T18:12:50Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > You do understand, don’t you, that organs are used for medical purposes and not in some greed scheme, right? [Oh yes they are.](http://www.lifeissues.net/writers/kat/org_01bodybrokerspart1.html) ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2005, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organ-donation-should-be-automatic/284224/64 "2005-01-11T18:14:40Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > I suppose; the point is that the would-be recipient made a conscious choice to sabotage the organ they were born with in the pursuit of self-gratification - I don’t think they should be able to get off the hook of that choice just because someone who chose more wisely happened to die. Yep, because they deserve a punishment of death for having made some bad lifestyle choices. They will die horrible, painful deaths, but at least you’ll get a warm fuzzy from feeling self-righteous. After all, you’ve been promoted to Grand Judge of Humanity. Putz. ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2005, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organ-donation-should-be-automatic/284224/65 "2005-01-11T18:15:09Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > So, a moment ago, you wouldn’t accept any religious objections, and now you will, within the context of the opt-out system. Glad we’ve brought you around. What the hell are you talking about? All I’m saying is that if you feel that your religion demands that you take your organs to the grave, rather than leaving them behind to help your fellow man, _you can opt-out_. _Personally_, I don’t think that religion is a valid excuse, and that any god that demands it doesn’t deserve worship. Not that I believe in a god. Which I don’t. Let’s turn the question around- does your god, **CandidGamera** , demand that you take all your parts to the grave? If so, how does that make you feel, knowing that those parts could’ve saved lives? ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2005, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organ-donation-should-be-automatic/284224/66 "2005-01-11T18:16:16Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > Wow. Are you and **CandidGamera** trying to out-stupid each other? You do understand, don’t you, that they don’t _actually_ dig up graves and and desecrate them with Satanic symbols? You do understand, don’t you, that organs are used for medical purposes and not in some greed scheme, right? You do understand, don’t you, you twit, that the net result is to save lives? > > Or, in your own twisted version of Libertopia, do you believe that people suffering from organ failure just brought it on themselves and deserve what they get? > > Last year my ex-girlfriend died due to kidney failure, through no fault of her own. Had a new kidney been available, it would have saved her life. But I guess she’s better off dead, right? 'Cause she was no better than a grave robber? > > Putz. Lib’s just practicing argument by exaggeration, I suspect. > [@This Year's Model](#): > > But you’d prefer to help nobody rather than take the slight risk that your organ might go to someone you disapprove of? Yes. Because if enough people think this way, then in the interest of saving lives, the system will be reformed to allow people like me to specify limits on how their organs will be used, which will in turn encourage us to actually sign up. As it stands, the only right I have with regards to my remains is to determine whether or not they will be used. That’s not good enough for me. So I don’t participate, until they change the system to expand my choices. It’s a variation of the old passive resistance ploy. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2005, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organ-donation-should-be-automatic/284224/67 "2005-01-11T18:18:32Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > Yep, because they deserve a punishment of death for having made some bad lifestyle choices. They will die horrible, painful deaths, but at least you’ll get a warm fuzzy from feeling self-righteous. After all, you’ve been promoted to Grand Judge of Humanity. > > Putz. I’m not judging. I’m refusing to enable self-destructive behavior. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2005, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organ-donation-should-be-automatic/284224/68 "2005-01-11T18:21:33Z")
> [@Lightnin'](#): > > What the hell are you talking about? All I’m saying is that if you feel that your religion demands that you take your organs to the grave, rather than leaving them behind to help your fellow man, _you can opt-out_. I don’t think your post in which you said you wouldn’t accept any religious objections said word one about an opt-out system. > [@](#): > > _Personally_, I don’t think that religion is a valid excuse, and that any god that demands it doesn’t deserve worship. Not that I believe in a god. Which I don’t. Is it just that Freedom of Religion part of the First Amendment you disagree with, or the whole thing? Pesky press… > [@](#): > > Let’s turn the question around- does your god, **CandidGamera** , demand that you take all your parts to the grave? If so, how does that make you feel, knowing that those parts could’ve saved lives? As a Generic Christian™, no, my God doesn’t demand that. My personal code of ethics, however, prevents me from participating in the system as it stands. How do I feel about that? I’m fine. We’re all fine here. How are you? ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2005, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organ-donation-should-be-automatic/284224/69 "2005-01-11T18:22:05Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > Yes. Because if enough people think this way, then in the interest of saving lives, the system will be reformed to allow people like me to specify limits on how their organs will be used, which will in turn encourage us to actually sign up. Just out of interest, would you expand your criteria beyond things like smoking to issues such as political persuasion or other preferences? I can see it now: “I don’t want my organs going to any Republicans, or to anyone who opposes abortion or gay marriage” “My organs are not to be given to liberals, leftists, Democrats, or anyone from a blue state.” “First preference for my organs should be given to Ravens and Orioles fans, and under no circumstances are Steelers or Yankees fans to be considered.” “I’m a vegetarian, and i don’t want my organs given to any meat-eaters.” ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2005, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organ-donation-should-be-automatic/284224/70 "2005-01-11T18:24:17Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > “I’m a vegetarian, and i don’t want my organs given to any meat-eaters.” Can we compromise? If I were to smother your organs in onions…that didn’t come out right…let me try again… ---
**Author:** ![belladonna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9fc29f/32.png) [@belladonna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/belladonna)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2005, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organ-donation-should-be-automatic/284224/71 "2005-01-11T18:25:20Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > “opt-out” proponents, please address this point, which I made in an earlier post: > > In the absence of socialized health care, an opt-out system would in many instances create situations where, without their consent, and without any benefit to them and their families, the bodies of the poor would be used to benefit the health of the more socially advantaged. Personally, I’m in favor of socialized health care, but that’s a whole 'nother can of worms around here so I’d rather not focus on that too much. However, you state that this would be done “without their consent” but by not opting out they \*were \* giving consent, so I’m not sure what you mean there. If your belief is that the donated organs would go only to those people with cushy health care plans and connections, I disagree. I believe that with an increase in donations, the demand for organs would be not so desparate and instances of corruption or fraud would be preventable or managable. Perhaps an objective agency to handle all claims in order of dire need and likely outcome? Like donation triage. As it stands now, the rich and connected likely \*do \* have an edge simply because there are so few donations. If livers were suddenly available to any and all who needed them, the incentive for blackmarket sales or preferential donations would disapppear, one would hope. I’m not saying the idea is perfectly developed. However, someone already stated that some European nations already practice opt-out systems. Apparently the logistics have been tackled elsewhere, why not try the same here? ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2005, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organ-donation-should-be-automatic/284224/72 "2005-01-11T18:27:39Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > So just because a man has a drivers license, he should automatically be subjected to your scheme? Why not just let people voluntarily offer their organs for donation if that’s what they want to do? Because as the OP points out, people are dying when they could be saved by organs that are now left to rot or burn. Do you really believe that the occasional (probably very rare) person having their organs harvested posthumously when that may not have been their wish is actually a _worse_ situation than people dying because they did not get a needed organ? ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2005, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organ-donation-should-be-automatic/284224/73 "2005-01-11T18:28:06Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > I’m not judging. I’m refusing to enable self-destructive behavior. You must be so proud of yourself. Don’t break your arm patting yourself on the back. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2005, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organ-donation-should-be-automatic/284224/74 "2005-01-11T18:28:02Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Just out of interest, would you expand your criteria beyond things like smoking to issues such as political persuasion or other preferences? > > I can see it now: > > “I don’t want my organs going to any Republicans, or to anyone who opposes abortion or gay marriage” > > “My organs are not to be given to liberals, leftists, Democrats, or anyone from a blue state.” > > “First preference for my organs should be given to Ravens and Orioles fans, and under no circumstances are Steelers or Yankees fans to be considered.” > > “I’m a vegetarian, and i don’t want my organs given to any meat-eaters.” Me? No. I wouldn’t limit based on any of those criteria. Do I think that potential donors should be able to specify criteria like that? Yup. If they’re such a passionate Orioles fan that they don’t want a Damn Yankee to have their spleen, then let them make that choice, because there are plenty of non-Yankee fans out there that could use that spleen, and being able to specify that will encourage the potential donor to sign up. ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2005, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organ-donation-should-be-automatic/284224/75 "2005-01-11T18:30:17Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > I don’t think your post in which you said you wouldn’t accept any religious objections said word one about an opt-out system. I didn’t state it, because it had been brought up by other posters. Now that you know I intended it to be an opt-out system, are you going to keep objecting on these grounds? > [@CandidGamera](#): > > Is it just that Freedom of Religion part of the First Amendment you disagree with, or the whole thing? Pesky press… It’s more that I’m expressing my right to free speech. Or do you have something against _that_ particular right? Feel free to worship whatever god you want. I’ll feel free to think you’re an idiot, but that’s neither here nor there. You see, the beauty of an opt-out system is that you can, surprise, _opt out_, for no matter what reason. If you do so for religious reasons, it’s my right to think you’re being a selfish prick- _but I can’t stop you from opting out._ > [@CandidGamera](#): > > As a Generic Christian™, no, my God doesn’t demand that. My personal code of ethics, however, prevents me from participating in the system as it stands. How do I feel about that? I’m fine. We’re all fine here. How are you? _Then fix the damn system._ Sitting on your hands, saying, “I won’t donate 'til the system runs perfectly” is effectively killing people, some of whom don’t deserve to die. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2005, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organ-donation-should-be-automatic/284224/76 "2005-01-11T18:31:21Z")
> [@This Year's Model](#): > > You must be so proud of yourself. Don’t break your arm patting yourself on the back. It’s not a thing to be proud of or ashamed of. It’s what I believe, so it’s what I do. If I did otherwise, I’d be a hypocrite, and couldn’t live with myself. ---
**Author:** ![SpaceDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spacedog/32/9932_2.png) [@SpaceDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpaceDog)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2005, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organ-donation-should-be-automatic/284224/77 "2005-01-11T18:35:19Z")
**CandidGamera** you do know that your system of letting donors specify things about their donee is unworkable, yes ? Say Joe Bloggs smoked and needs a lung transplant, do you deny him the transplant because he smoked ? What if he’s turned over a new life and swore off the cigs if only he can get a new lung ? Once he’s got the lung what’s to stop him going right back to smoking ? It’s not like they’re going to take it back. Or if you wouldn’t give smokers your lungs at all what about ex-smokers ? Smokers who have non-smoking related problems ? Who decides all of this for you ? What recourse does anyone have if someone ‘cheats’ – and who seeks it (after all, you’re dead). This is ignoring the administration of the system and the lawsuits that would get thrown around. Basically your passive resistance ain’t gonna change the system, all it’s going to do is put people at risk and perhaps ultimately lead to the death of people who could otherwise be saved. All this is ignoring the fact the poor life choices shouldn’t really be a cause to condem people passively or otherwise. SD ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2005, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organ-donation-should-be-automatic/284224/78 "2005-01-11T18:36:58Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > You do understand, don’t you, that organs are used for medical purposes and not in some greed scheme, right? You do understand, don’t you, you twit, that the net result is to save lives? There are LOTS of ways to save lives, you twit licker. That doesn’t mean you should do them all. If you want to save lives, start a fucking rescue squad. > [@](#): > > Putz Jackass. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2005, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organ-donation-should-be-automatic/284224/79 "2005-01-11T18:38:49Z")
> [@Lightnin'](#): > > I didn’t state it, because it had been brought up by other posters. Now that you know I intended it to be an opt-out system, are you going to keep objecting on these grounds? Then I suggest you re-read what you put there, because it sounded like you were more in line with the ones suggesting that no one be allowed to opt out for any reason. > [@](#): > > It’s more that I’m expressing my right to free speech. Or do you have something against _that_ particular right? Not at all. I’m just trying to clarify your position in my mind. > [@](#): > > Feel free to worship whatever god you want. I’ll feel free to think you’re an idiot, but that’s neither here nor there. That’s wonderful, but it sounds like if you were made the all-powerful dictator, you’d prevent people from opting out on the basis of religion… > [@](#): > > You see, the beauty of an opt-out system is that you can, surprise, _opt out_, for no matter what reason. If you do so for religious reasons, it’s my right to think you’re being a selfish prick- _but I can’t stop you from opting out._ Like when you say things like that, for instance. And Freedom of Religion isn’t just a set of pretty words to guarantee you the right to quietly, meekly pay homage to an omnipotent figure within the confines of your own head, it is the freedom to make choices based on that belief, including the dispositions of one’s remains. > [@](#): > > _Then fix the damn system._ Sitting on your hands, saying, “I won’t donate 'til the system runs perfectly” is effectively killing people, some of whom don’t deserve to die. I’m no legal eagle. I haven’t the money to run for office. And frankly, there are a hell of a lot more important things for me to think about than this issue. I’m fine with the situation as it is - the system will come to me when it needs me. ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2005, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organ-donation-should-be-automatic/284224/80 "2005-01-11T18:40:43Z")
> [@belladonna](#): > > However, you state that this would be done “without their consent” but by not opting out they \*were \* giving consent, so I’m not sure what you mean there. If they don’t know that they have to opt out, then it’s non-consensual no matter which way you slice it. So, again, how are you going to make sure that every single citizen knows they have to opt-out if they don’t want the government taking their organs when they die? > [@](#): > > If your belief is that the donated organs would go only to those people with cushy health care plans and connections, I disagree. No, my belief is that the donated organs would go only to those people that actually _have_ health care plans. > [@](#): > > I’m not saying the idea is perfectly developed. However, someone already stated that some European nations already practice opt-out systems. Apparently the logistics have been tackled elsewhere, why not try the same here? Do the nations where it’s being implemented have socialized health care? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organ-donation-should-be-automatic/284224.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organ-donation-should-be-automatic/284224.md?page=5)