# Organ Donation. Yes or no? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 21, 2011, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organ-donation-yes-or-no/575436 "2011-03-21T03:58:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2011, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organ-donation-yes-or-no/575436/21 "2011-03-21T16:29:48Z")
> [@cckerberos](#): > > Opt-out systems of any kind leave a sour taste in my mouth. > > It also strikes me as fundamentally unjust that the only person in the whole organ donation/transplant process who is not allowed to benefit is the one who actually provided the valuable organ in the first place. The person who is donating is dead, and so can’t benefit very much. Why don’t you like opt-out systems? They just make laziness work for the good of society, not the opposite. They also signal to people which course is favored by society, but that is very reasonable in this case. I’m against paying since an opt-out system would provide enough organs without getting into the murky territory of paying for flesh. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2011, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organ-donation-yes-or-no/575436/22 "2011-03-21T16:31:21Z")
> [@cmosdes](#): > > Also, I don’t think anyone is suggesting there not be an opt-out clause. I was. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2011, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organ-donation-yes-or-no/575436/23 "2011-03-21T16:35:01Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Where I come from, hospitals do not pay for blood and do not charge to install donated organs. So yeah, I’ll stick firmly in the “those things should not be paid” corner. Okay, but give me a reason why. “That’s the way it is” is a terrible reason. If paying for organs would result in more sick people getting organs they need, I’m having trouble understanding the downside. I understand there can be problems inherent in it, but then, that’s true of buying and selling anything and is why we have laws, cops and courts. I’d rather have a kidney available for my sick relative and deal with the possibility of corruption than just let people die and sleep well knowing hey, at least nobody’s profiting! ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2011, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organ-donation-yes-or-no/575436/24 "2011-03-21T17:15:39Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Okay, but give me a reason why. “That’s the way it is” is a terrible reason. > > If paying for organs would result in more sick people getting organs they need, I’m having trouble understanding the downside. I understand there can be problems inherent in it, but then, that’s true of buying and selling anything and is why we have laws, cops and courts. I’d rather have a kidney available for my sick relative and deal with the possibility of corruption than just let people die and sleep well knowing hey, at least nobody’s profiting! The reason is that donation is a one-way street. If someone cons a person out of his money, he can get it back. If a person is conned out a kidney, that kidney is gone forever. Putting the con artist in jail doesn’t get the kidney back. Plus, there are risks involved with donation, risks better assessed by the potential donor if money is not involved. And please, don’t even try to say the threat of jail will keep people from being crooked, or that every person will absolutely and rationally consider the options. The mortgage melt down and the crime rate are counterexamples to this. ---
**Author:** ![cckerberos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@cckerberos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cckerberos)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2011, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organ-donation-yes-or-no/575436/25 "2011-03-21T18:20:55Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > The person who is donating is dead, and so can’t benefit very much. That was in reference to living donors. But it doesn’t much change for the dead. If we’re to assume that the corpse has no particular special status as some have suggested, it should be treated as property and become part of the deceased’s estate. The people who the deceased left behind could certainly benefit. > [@](#): > > Why don’t you like opt-out systems? They just make laziness work for the good of society, not the opposite. Two reasons. First, they depend not just on laziness but ignorance as well. It screws people who aren’t aware of the policy and at the same time reduces the incentives on the part of the government to advertise the system and make it convenient to opt-out. Second, it’s another way of trying to get around what I see as the key issue here. Organs are valuable. If “society” wants them, it should pay for them. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2011, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organ-donation-yes-or-no/575436/26 "2011-03-21T18:22:23Z")
One method I like is the proposal to move people who have agreed to donate their organs up a bit in the line to receive an organ if they need one. Under this system, if all other things are equal, someone who signed their donor card has preference over someone who has not, in receiving the next available matched organ. This idea came from a transplant surgeon who was rather put out to discover many patients on the organ recipient waiting list who were not willing to donate their own organs. ---
**Author:** ![redtail23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/3e96dc/32.png) [@redtail23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/redtail23)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2011, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organ-donation-yes-or-no/575436/27 "2011-03-21T18:42:34Z")
No payment. Opt-out system. And I absolutely agree that you should not be able to receive an organ if you aren’t a donor. If you can’t be bothered to educate yourself on this well-known issue and/or to fill out a little card (or whatever) to get off the list, then obviously it doesn’t matter that much to you. Since (some of) the rest of us need organs and you don’t care, then we get them. OTOH, here in the USA where we’re currently opt-in, I would expect a massive information campaign initially, to be sure that everyone understood the new system and how to opt out. I’m not in favor of payment for organs because we have enough problems with black-markets and VIPs mysteriously getting to the tops of the lists without starting a payoff system to encourage it. **QtM** , yeah, I remember seeing an article a few years back about animal rights protesters throwing fits over some transplant part that was being grown in pigs (? I think it was pigs). Because you know, the animals were being horribly abused. Someone went out and canvassed the protesters. I think less than 10% were organ donors. It was pointed out that if we had more organ donors, we wouldn’t need as many pigs. ---
**Author:** ![cmosdes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@cmosdes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmosdes)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2011, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organ-donation-yes-or-no/575436/28 "2011-03-21T18:55:14Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I was. My apologies. I missed that part. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2011, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organ-donation-yes-or-no/575436/29 "2011-03-21T19:44:38Z")
> [@ruadh](#): > > They should make it compulsory where a person dies leaving usable organs. Or, at the very least, switch to the opt-out system used in places like Spain where you have to sign a card saying you don’t want your organs used if you die, rather than having to a sign a card saying you do. This system used to exist in France, but in fact it was never applied. Doctors wouldn’t harvest organs without the family agreement. In fact, I’ve heard that nowadays, they sometimes don’t harvest organs from registered donors when facing the hostility of the family. Don’t know to what extent it is true, nor how common it could be. In any case, it seems that the medical body is generally reluctant to ignore family’s will. At least over here. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2011, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organ-donation-yes-or-no/575436/30 "2011-03-21T19:54:43Z")
> [@cckerberos](#): > > Two reasons. First, they depend not just on laziness but ignorance as well. It screws people who aren’t aware of the policy and at the same time reduces the incentives on the part of the government to advertise the system and make it convenient to opt-out. Second, it’s another way of trying to get around what I see as the key issue here. Organs are valuable. If “society” wants them, it should pay for them. Talking about the government is a bit of a red herring. Besides setting the rules, the government isn’t involved at all in this transaction between the donor and the potential donee. If you look at the countries in Europe which opt in or opt out, there is no real political distinction. I suspect most of the people who choose neither just don’t care in this case. Thus, I doubt they are getting screwed in any way by the default of donating. I can imagine someone upset by the prospect - but if that were the case, they could easily opt out. I can imagine opposition for religious reasons, but the churches are perfectly capable of providing their members with opt-out forms. Most people don’t give a shit. In a opt-in system, the laziness and/or ignorance of people leads to those who might be saved dying. Is the fact that someone who might have decided to not donate if only he got around to it but did donate an equal problem? The first priority is enabling those who wish to choose to do so, so I’m against mandatory donations. We also know that an opt-in system can go against people’s obvious self-interest, as in the 401K situation. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2011, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organ-donation-yes-or-no/575436/31 "2011-03-21T19:57:41Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > One method I like is the proposal to move people who have agreed to donate their organs up a bit in the line to receive an organ if they need one. > > Under this system, if all other things are equal, someone who signed their donor card has preference over someone who has not, in receiving the next available matched organ. > > This idea came from a transplant surgeon who was rather put out to discover many patients on the organ recipient waiting list who were not willing to donate their own organs. Is there a time before wish they were supposed to agree to donate? What’s to keep someone from signing up at the first sign of trouble? ---
**Author:** ![Laudenum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7993a0/32.png) [@Laudenum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Laudenum)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2011, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organ-donation-yes-or-no/575436/32 "2011-03-21T21:34:29Z")
> [@Maastricht](#): > > Also, people opting out shouldnt be able to receive organs, either. What if I am ok with donating most of my organs, but like many people have a problem with someone cutting out my corneas? ---
**Author:** ![Borzo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/43a26b/32.png) [@Borzo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Borzo)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2011, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organ-donation-yes-or-no/575436/33 "2011-03-21T21:46:50Z")
Why would family members to the use of a deceased organs? Any regions other than religious? ---
**Author:** ![Borzo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/43a26b/32.png) [@Borzo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Borzo)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2011, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organ-donation-yes-or-no/575436/34 "2011-03-21T22:21:43Z")
edit: Why would family members object to the use of a deceased person’s organs? Any regions other than religious? ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2011, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organ-donation-yes-or-no/575436/35 "2011-03-21T22:29:31Z")
Oh dear. I know I replied to this thread. I hope it didn’t end up in the Worst Clothing Item Ever thread instead! Upshot of my disappeared post: I’m absolutely a supporter of opt-out instead of opt-in, but I do think people who have medical conditions or are on medications which preclude them from organ donation should still be allowed to be on the transplant list. Not their fault they’re already too sick to donate an organ. Religious opt-outs, however, I think should not be allowed to receive. If g-d wants to make sure you have all \*your \*bits and pieces in your grave, surely It would be annoyed if the kidneys don’t match. So we’ll help you be consistent and not saddle you with someone else’s kidney. You’re welcome. **Borzo** , the most common reason I hear people refuse organ donation is the misguided notion that we’re going to let someone die of things we could treat if we hear they’re an organ donor, so we can start rooting around in there and harvesting practically before their last breath. It’s total bullshit, of course, but it’s a common fear. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2011, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organ-donation-yes-or-no/575436/36 "2011-03-21T22:31:56Z")
> [@Borzo](#): > > Why would family members to the use of a deceased organs? Any regions other than religious? I object to organ brokers making hundreds of thousands of dollars in “processing fees” from of my corpse without my estate benefiting. [The Body Brokers: Part 1- Assembly Line](http://www.lifeissues.net/writers/kat/org_01bodybrokerspart1.html) > [@](#): > > A typical donor produces $14,000 to $34,000 in sales for the nonprofits, records and interviews show. But yields can be far greater. > > Skin, tendons, heart valves, veins and corneas are listed at about $110,000. Add bone from the same body, and one cadaver can be worth about $220,000 [ETA: eleven years ago!]. > > The National Organ Transplant Act, approved by Congress in 1984, banned profits from the sale of tissue. But no company or tissue bank has been prosecuted. > > “The law has never been tested in court. Nobody has ever decided what is selling and what isn’t,” said Jeanne Mowe, executive director of the American Association of Tissue Banks. [The Body Brokers - Part 2: Skin Merchants](http://www.lifeissues.net/writers/kat/org_01bodybrokerspart2.html) > [@](#): > > Burn victims lie waiting in hospitals as nurses scour the country for skin to cover their wounds, even though skin is in plentiful supply for plastic surgeons, an Orange County Register investigation found. The skin they need to save their lives is being used instead for procedures that could wait: supporting bladders, erasing laugh lines and enlarging penises. Donated bodies and tissue such as bones and veins are used in ways most people would never imagine, and profits are made with little oversight. > > Tight federal regulations ensure that kidneys, hearts and other internal organs are funneled to patients in the greatest need. But skin, the body’s largest organ, isn’t covered in the law. Instead, it has become a commodity. Of 139 burn centers nationwide, 11 have their own skin banks. Even they, at times, have difficulty finding enough skin for their patients. The rest of the hospitals must call banks nationwide when they need skin and pay whatever price tissue banks are charging that day. [The Body Brokers — Part 3: Researchers](http://www.lifeissues.net/writers/kat/org_01bodybrokerspart3.html) > [@](#): > > Donated human bodies are replacing crash-test dummies and animals in sometimes-bizarre research projects that are largely hidden from the public, an Orange County Register investigation has found. Like their counterparts in the body-parts industry, researchers at universities and in private business avoid telling families how their loved ones are being used. They fear donations would drop. > > … > > At least 17,500 bodies are donated to science in the United States every year, according to a Register survey. These bodies are in addition to the 20,000 cadavers used each year by businesses to make products. Most of the bodies donated to science follow a traditional path: to medical schools, where students dissect them, or to medical conferences, where physicians practice their skills on them. > > But each year, at least 4,000 bodies become the subjects of wide-ranging experiments, the Register found. Bodies are crashed to test vehicle air bags, heads are dropped to test helmets, and arms are dropped to test snowboard wrist braces. These experiments are seldom discussed publicly and almost never disclosed to would-be donors or their families. Sometimes researchers don’t even tell families they are taking parts from their loved ones’ bodies. Since 1990, the Los Angeles County Coroner’s Office has removed parts from hundreds of accident and homicide victims without consent. The coroner gave those parts to researchers. When some families found out, they felt violated and angry. [The Body Brokers — Part 4: Gatekeepers](http://www.lifeissues.net/writers/kat/org_01bodybrokerspart4.html) > [@](#): > > Human-tissue transplants have caused AIDS, hepatitis and even rabies, but they’re subject to less regulation than a kitchen toaster. The U.S. Food and Drug Administration supervises tissue banks but says it doesn’t know how many exist. FDA and industry leaders say the nation’s tissue supply is safe. But an Orange County Register investigation found gaping holes in the safety net: > > No hard statistics back up industry and FDA safety claims. Regulators have focused on a handful of high-profile health threats but have not studied the long-term effects of tissue transplants. None of the federal government’s primary health investigators – the FDA, the Centers for Disease Control and the National Institutes of Health – routinely tracks deaths or illnesses affecting tissue recipients. A cadaver suspected of carrying disease may be rejected by one tissue bank but accepted by another bank and its tissue sent out to patients. > > There are so few inspectors that tissue banks can escape inspection for years, even if the most recent inspector found significant problems. California, one of four states that regulates tissue banks, has not inspected any in nearly two years. [The Body Brokers — Part 5: Pioneers](http://www.lifeissues.net/writers/kat/org_01bodybrokerspart5.html) > [@](#): > > A family of Russian immigrants came to America with $90 and struck it rich in the body-parts trade. Headed by patriarch El Gendler, the family grossed $24.8 million in salaries, bonuses and fees over five years turning donated human tissue into products, an Orange County Register investigation found. > > Gendler co-founded the Pacific Coast Tissue Bank, a nonprofit that seeks donations from grieving families. He also co-founded with his wife a private, for-profit bone-processing firm that gets its raw materials from downtown Los Angeles-based Pacific Coast, records show. “I make a good living,” wrote Gendler, who declined to be interviewed in person. “But I work hard and have a lifetime of work invested. … I am a top scientist, and I receive compensation as such.” Industry critics and ethicists say the Gendlers represent the good and the troubling in the $500 million tissue trade, which thrives on a mix of altruism and money. > > More than 175 companies and tissue banks nationwide operate in this fast- growing field, despite laws against profiting from the sale of body parts. The industry does not include agencies that harvest vital organs, such as hearts, livers and kidneys for transplant. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organ-donation-yes-or-no/575436/37 "2011-03-22T00:11:02Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > The reason is that donation is a one-way street. If someone cons a person out of his money, he can get it back. If a person is conned out a kidney, that kidney is gone forever. Putting the con artist in jail doesn’t get the kidney back. Plus, there are risks involved with donation, risks better assessed by the potential donor if money is not involved. In the first case, I can’t sell you my kidney the way I can sell you a bicycle. It has to go through a hospital. Have a state-run agency to broker these exchanges. Doctors and clinics will be involved. In the second, I don’t get it. Of course there are risks. You have doctors explain them. Money being involved doesn’t make you incapable of listening to a doctor. Does it change the equation? Yes, that’s the point. ---
**Author:** ![Canadjun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/76d3ee/32.png) [@Canadjun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Canadjun)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organ-donation-yes-or-no/575436/38 "2011-03-22T00:42:16Z")
I very much like the idea of opt-out, but if opt-out can’t be implemented then one thing I would very much like to see is for opt-in to be \*\*irrevocable \*\*once the person is no longer capable of making their own decisions. Assuming my will is valid and any statutory requirements are met in terms of beneficiaries, the bequests in my will can’t be changed after I die even if my next of kin don’t agree. Why should it be any different for opting in to organ donation? (My comment is based on what I’ve heard many times that in at least some jurisdictions next of kin can over-rule an organ donor card, however I have no cites, so I may be misremembering). ---
**Author:** ![Sakuma\_Drops](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/50afbb/32.png) [@Sakuma\_Drops](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sakuma_Drops)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organ-donation-yes-or-no/575436/39 "2011-03-22T01:56:50Z")
> [@Borzo](#): > > edit: > > Why would family members object to the use of a deceased person’s organs? Any regions other than religious? I don’t think I’ve really heard of any reasons that _aren’t_ religious. I’m reminded of the case of Jason Ray, a UNC cheerleader who was hit and killed by a car and who had made the decision to be an organ donor, against his parents’ initial wishes: > [@](#): > > “What does this little heart mean?” [Charlotte Ray] remembers asking, pointing to the tiny red icon on his license. > > “It means I’m going to be an organ donor,” Jason said. > > “Let’s be serious,” Charlotte shot back. “Your father and I believe that you come here with all these little parts, you ought to leave here with all these parts. I’m not so sure about this.” [Link.](http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/eticket/story?page=rayofhope) Jason Ray and his family were Christians, not Orthodox Jews, so this thought that organs ought to accompany the earthly body to the grave extends beyond the most well-known religious groups for whom it is doctrine. As for myself, although I’m Jewish I strongly disagree with the Orthodox on this topic (well, I disagree with them on a few things, but on this especially). I still recognize that it’s _their_ decision to make, however. Organ donation on the whole, I feel, is being de-stigmatized pretty effectively in the U.S.A., and many of the old religious prejudices against it are losing steam. But I feel that each person should have the right to decide for themselves how they feel on this issue, and it isn’t something that anyone ought to be bribed or mandated into doing. If refusing organ donation is indeed “wrong”, then it should be judged that way by _everyone_ - including the Orthodox Jews and anyone else who currently has a spiritual conflict with it. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organ-donation-yes-or-no/575436/40 "2011-03-22T11:29:55Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > I object to organ brokers making hundreds of thousands of dollars in “processing fees” from of my corpse without my estate benefiting. Good point, and I object to it as well. That’s one reason why I’d like to see opt-out programs. The number of people healthy enough to donate organs that die each day surely exceeds the waiting lists. If supply exceeds demand, these sort of shady dealings will have little traction, I think. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organ-donation-yes-or-no/575436.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organ-donation-yes-or-no/575436.md?page=3)