# "Organic sodium" **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 15, 2002, 8:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organic-sodium/114197 "2002-06-15T08:07:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2012, 9:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organic-sodium/114197/21 "2012-10-07T09:54:59Z")
> [@WarmNPrickly](#): > > Sodium from NaCl will get absorbed because your body is mostly water and sodium chloride is very soluble in water; however, in order for Sodium ions to get from your stomach to the rest of your body it must get absorbed through your stomach lining which is largely organic. Attatching the sodium to something organic (carbon based) as in sodium citrate can help carry it through these things. It may act as a sort of phase transfer catalyst. > > It is only a guess however. I am not a biochemist, and have no real idea. Even when the sodium ion is dissolved as sodium citrate, it would not be closely associated with the citrate ion in an aqueous solution. The citrate could act as a carrier when going through the stomach lining though. > > I guess the bottom line is, that in my opinion, there is no need for your average person to be concerned about the type of sodium they ingest. It will all pretty much behave the same. > > Major mistake on that Calcium thing though. Yes Calcium Carbonate is in limestone, but I just remembered Calcium Carbonate is what TUMS is. I don’t know what happens to the calcium in TUMS when it is absorbed. It is possible it picks up a chloride anion and percipitates out as Calcium Chloride. > > Nevertheless, the point is that Calcium and Sodium have entirely different characteristics. Calcium is relatively insoluble in water. This is why it percipitates out on riverbeds and in caves to make calcium carbonate deposites, which are for all practical purposes, rocks. When it is ground up and dissolved in an acidic environment like your stomach, there may be some increased solubility, but probably not enough for adequate absorption. You are badly misinformed. Most calcium salts are readily soluble in water. It is true that calcium carbonate is not (also calcium phosphate, found in bones), however, when it reaches your stomach it is converted to calcium chloride, which _is_ soluble, by the hydrochloric acid that is there as major component of the digestive juices. As others have said, the talk of “organic sodium” in the OP is utter nonsense. The sodium naturally found in foods is mostly in the form of inorganic salts such as the sulfate and the chloride (regular table salt). Some of the anions it is associated with may be organic acids, but that makes no difference since, in solution, sodium ions are dissociated from their anions anyway, not closely bound to them. ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2012, 10:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organic-sodium/114197/22 "2012-10-07T10:00:11Z")
This thread was started ten years ago. ---
**Author:** ![AaronX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/7bcc69/32.png) [@AaronX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AaronX)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2012, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organic-sodium/114197/23 "2012-10-07T12:02:27Z")
Organic sodium? That’s useless unless you use organic water. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2012, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organic-sodium/114197/24 "2012-10-07T12:18:24Z")
I would take any vegan claim with a grain of, er, salt. The one that really drives me nuts is that humans evolved with a vegan diet. Really? Then how come we cannot survive on a purely vegan diet unless supplemented with vitamin B12? All primates eat insects, for example. We can readily live on non-vegan vegetarian diet, by contrast. But some animal food seems necessary. I wish there were some way I could use salt and not have it absorbed. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2012, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organic-sodium/114197/25 "2012-10-07T16:42:31Z")
> [@rikkitikki](#): > > Just to clarify the term ‘organic’ > > It means any compound that contains carbon. > > For example table salt, NaCl does not contain carbon = inorganic. > > Calcium Carbonate, CaCO3 contains carbon = organic. > > There are at least 1 million know organic (carbon) compounds From the Wikipedia page on Organic Chemistry: In 1828 Friedrich Wöhler produced the organic chemical urea (carbamide), a constituent of urine, from the inorganic ammonium cyanate NH[sub]4[/sub]CNO, in what is now called the Wöhler synthesis. Ammonium cyanate is called inorganic even though it contains carbon. Ditto simple carbonates. If you have to revive an ancient thread just to correct people, be better at it. ---
**Author:** ![Michael63129](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3da27b/32.png) [@Michael63129](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Michael63129)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2012, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organic-sodium/114197/26 "2012-10-07T17:31:37Z")
Not another zombie thread (didn’t notice until **Smeghead** ’s post). Anyway, the talk about calcium carbonate being poorly absorbed, I thought it would react with stomach acid to form calcium chloride, which is highly soluble ([128 grams per 100 ml of water at 40°C](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solubility_table#C)), assuming you don’t take it as a big solid chunk (powder would quickly dissolve); that is what [this page](http://expertscolumn.com/content/calcium-ii-factors-affecting-calcium-absorption-body) says and says the only advantage of calcium citrate is that you don’t need to take it with a meal. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2012, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organic-sodium/114197/27 "2012-10-07T21:15:41Z")
> [@rikkitikki](#): > > Just to clarify the term ‘organic’ Many, if not most, words in the English language have more than one meaning. Organic is one of them. ---
**Author:** ![johnpost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f17d59/32.png) [@johnpost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/johnpost)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2012, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organic-sodium/114197/28 "2012-10-08T02:13:13Z")
> [@rikkitikki](#): > > Just to clarify the term ‘organic’ > > It means any compound that contains carbon. > > For example table salt, NaCl does not contain carbon = inorganic. > > Calcium Carbonate, CaCO3 contains carbon = organic. > > There are at least 1 million know organic (carbon) compounds zombie or no diamonds have lots of carbon. i don’t know of any chemist would call that an organic compound/molecule. organic chemistry involves molecules containing carbon in a particular circumstance. lots of inorganic molecules are carbon containing including carbonates. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2012, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organic-sodium/114197/29 "2012-10-08T02:26:06Z")
> [@Michael63129](#): > > Not another zombie thread (didn’t notice until **Smeghead** ’s post). > > Anyway, the talk about calcium carbonate being poorly absorbed, I thought it would react with stomach acid to form calcium chloride, which is highly soluble ([128 grams per 100 ml of water at 40°C](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solubility_table#C)), assuming you don’t take it as a big solid chunk (powder would quickly dissolve); that is what [this page](http://expertscolumn.com/content/calcium-ii-factors-affecting-calcium-absorption-body) says and says the only advantage of calcium citrate is that you don’t need to take it with a meal. For one, “old” CaCO3 (rocks) is notoriously hard to dissolve, even by boiling it in HCl (at least this does dissolve it, where simply putting it in water won’t); “freshly deposited” (not wholly cristallized) CaCO3 dissolves with lesser difficulty but still doesn’t dissolve very well; and yes, a bigger chunk will take longer to dissolve than the same mass in powder. This is a matter of kinetics, though. But also compounds don’t exist on their own. NaCl and AgNO3 are both soluble, but if you mix both with water, the Ag+ and Cl- form solid AgCl; does this mean you don’t have NaCl and AgNO3 any more? No, it means you have Na+, Ag+, Cl-, NO3-, tiny amounts of NaCl, tiny amounts of AgNO3 and a visible amount of AgNO3; how much of each ion or salt will be a function of total concentrations and of their solubility constants. IOW, CaCO3 doesn’t just “become” CaCl2 (which isn’t exactly the king of solubility either, anyway), you still have the CO3= floating around, ready to capture\* the Ca++ There’s an amazing amount of mineral supplement formulations which don’t take co-solubility into account, which combine compounds that are soluble separatedly but not together. - is the technical word, promise. ---
**Author:** ![WarmNPrickly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d78d45/32.png) [@WarmNPrickly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WarmNPrickly)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2012, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organic-sodium/114197/30 "2012-10-08T03:37:49Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > You are badly misinformed. Most calcium salts are readily soluble in water. It is true that calcium carbonate is not (also calcium phosphate, found in bones), however, when it reaches your stomach it is converted to calcium chloride, which _is_ soluble, by the hydrochloric acid that is there as major component of the digestive juices. Badly misinformed? I’m afraid not. Calcium stearate is one of the main causes of soap scum when washing with natural soaps. Organic salts of magnesium and calcium typically do have lower solubility in water. You are right though that the stomach acids will take care of that, but I more or less said that 10 years ago. ---
**Author:** ![rikkitikki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@rikkitikki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rikkitikki)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2012, 8:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organic-sodium/114197/31 "2012-10-08T08:49:44Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > From the Wikipedia page on Organic Chemistry: In 1828 Friedrich Wöhler produced the organic chemical urea (carbamide), a constituent of urine, from the inorganic ammonium cyanate NH[sub]4[/sub]CNO, in what is now called the Wöhler synthesis. > > Ammonium cyanate is called \*\*\*\*inorganic \*\*\*\*even though it contains carbon. Ditto simple carbonates. If you have to revive an ancient thread just to correct people, be better at it. \*\* Ammonium cyanate \*\*is called **inorganic** because it is **not** \*\*produced \*\ ***biologically,** i.e by a living organism. It really is important to define organic as it has **different connotations** depending on which field of science is being discussed. Of course it suits the quacks to mix and blend terminology to suit their psuedo-scientific junk literature. Also, just thought i would share this definition of inorganic chemistry from wikipedia: “ **Inorganic chemistry** is the branch of chemistry concerned with the properties and behavior of **inorganic compound** s. **This field covers all chemical compounds** **except the myriad organic compounds (carbon based compounds**, usually containing C-H bonds), which are the **subjects of organic chemistry**.” ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2012, 9:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organic-sodium/114197/32 "2012-10-08T09:41:02Z")
> [@johnpost](#): > > zombie or no > > diamonds have lots of carbon. i don’t know of any chemist would call that an organic compound/molecule. Nerp! Diamond is a crystalized form of carbon, known as an _allotrope_ (the lattice a particular atom can form and arrange itself in) that can, in being the ever versatile element we know and love, form: Graphite, coal, diamond, nanotubes: all allotropes. > [@johnpost](#): > > organic chemistry involves molecules containing carbon in a particular circumstance. > > lots of inorganic molecules are carbon containing including carbonates. It’s slightly arbitrary. These days, organic compounds are usually considered to have some carbon-hydrogen bonds. So there is no “official” definition. Many are fine with “It’s got some carbon in it, it’s organic.” Then there’s are “inorganic compounds,” mostly oxides like CO2 or carbon monoxide. And of course the aforementioned allotropes, or steel alloys. Also simple halides and sulfides, carbonates and cyanides are considered “inorganic carbon compounds”, which I do suppose is a useful class of distinction. Most of the truly organic compounds are ubiquitous, and vital to life: Hydrocarbons, lipids, proteins, amino acids, enzymes, oils, vitamins, etc. That said, as far as “organic sodium”, I can’t tell if the concern from vegans are over bioavailability of sodium or calcium using either NaCl, or Calcium Citrate. There is an organic sodium compound salt, [Trisodium Citrate.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trisodium_citrate#Medical_uses) Na[sub]3[/sub]C[sub]6[/sub]H[sub]5[/sub]O[sub]7[/sub]. Used in a lot of food additives, and has a somewhat tart taste (duh). Apparently, once in the bloodstream, the citrate ions get busy with the calcium ions in the blood and form calcium citrate. It’s also known to reduce acidosis in renal problems and can be used as an antacid or a laxative, depending on how your mood strikes you. It looks like it can improve you running performance too. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2012, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organic-sodium/114197/33 "2012-10-08T11:22:43Z")
> [@AaronX](#): > > Organic sodium? That’s useless unless you use organic water. No. [Hexagonal water](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hexagonal_water)will do. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2012, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organic-sodium/114197/34 "2012-10-08T21:02:28Z")
> [@WarmNPrickly](#): > > Badly misinformed? I’m afraid not. Calcium stearate is one of the main causes of soap scum when washing with natural soaps. Organic salts of magnesium and calcium typically do have lower solubility in water. You are right though that the stomach acids will take care of that, but I more or less said that 10 years ago. The picture you presented of “calcium” (I will charitably assume that you meant calcium salts) being largely insoluble, with calcium chloride “precipitating out” was indeed badly misinformed and misleading. Calcium chloride, like most inorganic calcium salts, is very soluble and thus not inclined to precipitate out of aqueous solution. The fact that you are able to come up with a single example (further to those that I already mentioned) of an insoluble calcium salt (stearate - an _organic_ anion, by the way), in no way contradicts what I said. (I am sure that many more examples of relatively insoluble calcium salts of organic acids could be enumerated. That, however, is beside the point of the fact that what you originally said about the difficulty of absorbing calcium, due to its insolubility, was nonsense.) ---
**Author:** ![am77494](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d2c977/32.png) [@am77494](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/am77494)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2012, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organic-sodium/114197/35 "2012-10-09T00:18:28Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > The picture you presented of “calcium” (I will charitably assume that you meant calcium salts) being largely insoluble, with calcium chloride “precipitating out” was indeed badly misinformed and misleading. Calcium chloride, like most inorganic calcium salts, is very soluble and thus not inclined to precipitate out of aqueous solution. I agree with the premise that CaCl2 is very soluble and being so - it can suppress the ionization of other Calcium salts if present (common ion effect). Also - how much HCl does the digestive tract produce - may help us understand if all the calcium carbonate we may consume maybe converted to CaCl2 or some maybe left unconverted. ---
**Author:** ![WarmNPrickly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d78d45/32.png) [@WarmNPrickly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WarmNPrickly)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2012, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organic-sodium/114197/36 "2012-10-09T01:19:03Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > The picture you presented of “calcium” (I will charitably assume that you meant calcium salts) being largely insoluble, with calcium chloride “precipitating out” was indeed badly misinformed and misleading. Calcium chloride, like most inorganic calcium salts, is very soluble and thus not inclined to precipitate out of aqueous solution. > > The fact that you are able to come up with a single example (further to those that I already mentioned) of an insoluble calcium salt (stearate - an _organic_ anion, by the way), in no way contradicts what I said. (I am sure that many more examples of relatively insoluble calcium salts of organic acids could be enumerated. That, however, is beside the point of the fact that what you originally said about the difficulty of absorbing calcium, due to its insolubility, was nonsense.) In terms of general trends, both calcium and magnesium salts tend to be less soluble. Exceptions always exist. The fact is, water hardness is a major factor in many industrial processes specifically because these salts precipitate out. I see though that, in my original post, I did state that calcium chloride would precipitate out. That was clearly wrong. I can’t put myself in my ten year ago self but I’m sure I was going from general trends of the alkali earth metal cations without considering the anion. I appreciate your correction. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organic-sodium/114197.md?page=1)