# Organizations Discriminating Based on Gender **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 26, 2004, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organizations-discriminating-based-on-gender/281700 "2004-12-26T19:42:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2005, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organizations-discriminating-based-on-gender/281700/161 "2005-01-05T01:42:43Z")
> [@infamousmom](#): > > Would you quote back any message where I said I didn’t think there was any difference between men and women? It’s not something you explicitly said, but more something you seem to be implying. You say that a tall persons club is OK because there are differences between tall and non tall people. Well, using that logic, mens only clubs are OK because there are differences between men and women. > [@](#): > > Ah, so the Masons aren’t business oriented and don’t teach anybody anything and don’t exist for any reason other than to let the guys get away from women? Is that what all those hundreds of years of ritual have been protecting? Really? Seems to me you wouldn’t have to study anything nor take any kind of oath if you \*really \*just wanted a night out with the guys. It’d probably be cheaper to go to the bowling alley, and you wouldn’t have to learn all that mumbo-jumbo and wear the silly hats. Bowling shirts do at least come in a wide variety of colors. Ah, but going out for a night of bowling, or whatever, leaves open the posibility of interaction with women, and these guys don’t want that. They want to be in a place made up exclusivly of men. As for learning business practises, I don’t have a clue. They may, or, they just take pride in belonging to an exclusive club that’s lasted for a very long time, with lots of secrets and rituals. > [@](#): > > Uh, yeah, that’s exactly the point. You only quoted part of what I said and then took it out of context. But, it could be my fault and I wasn’t clear enough, so I’ll restate then. It doesn’t matter if a man only club would do just fine if women were allowed to join. If men only want to get togeather with other men, that’s there business. It doesn’t matter if the reason is legit, bullshit, or somewhere inbetween. Men should have the right to associate with other men only if they so desire, wheter you, or anybody else, likes it or not. ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2005, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organizations-discriminating-based-on-gender/281700/162 "2005-01-05T02:35:52Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > I personally, like **Miller** (?) don’t “switch” personalities when I move from same sex group to co-ed. I find it odd that others do. It’s not that most people “switch” personalities, it’s just that there are some things that they feel uncomfortable saying or doing around people of the opposite sex. For example, I know that sometimes female friends will discuss private things like periods. Usually they don’t do this around men. And most of us appreciate this. Or, sometimes, when a man sees a very attractive women, he may want to talk about it with a friend or two, but he may not want to describe her sweet sweet rack or her nice butt if other women are around. Of course there are other things that aren’t of a personal or crass nature, yet, still, men only prefer to share with other men and women with other women. For another example, some men are energetic and can get a little rowdy. If they’re just with other men it’s usually OK, but if they’re with women, it could get on the women’s nerves. Likewise, women can go and watch and movie like **The First Wives Club** and then afterwards have a long conversation about all the feelings and emotions that are going on. This is something that would usually bore a man. And finally, although I think it’s sad, because it should be obvious, I guess I’ll throw in this disclaimer about this post. I’m not saying that all men are crude, sports loving rowdy individuals, nor am I saying that women are all emotional, sentimental silly creatures. I’m a guy, and, except for the Summer Olympics, I’m not into sports. Where I work, I know many women who are. Likewise, I’m sure that there are plenty of guys who like watching “chick flicks”. I’m talking in generalities here, and usually, men are more aggressive and feel the need to tone it down a little when around women. Likewise, women may feel the need to curtail their more, shall we say, feminine side when hanging around men. And finally, yes, there are those who are just themselves regardless of who is around. But usually, to some degree, people change their behavior depending on the gender of the people they are around. ---
**Author:** ![infamousmom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/d6d6ee/32.png) [@infamousmom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/infamousmom)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2005, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organizations-discriminating-based-on-gender/281700/163 "2005-01-06T07:18:35Z")
> [@LouisB](#): > > If a person attempts to join the Masons out of a desire to advance himself in business, he will not be allowed to join at all. …and Masons don’t wear silly hats or hats of anykind except when we are outdoors and the weather is inclement. If the Masonic Fraternity ever does admit women, I sincerely doubt you would ever make the cut. Hee hee… lordy, why would I want to join? If I had wanted to join the Masons I could have done it long ago. After all, my grandmother joined the Masons in the 1920s and it was possible for women to join long before that. I’m not out to join up. I’m just having a great laugh at all the guys who so vehemently defend the silly policies. Reminds me of all the **Really Good Reasons** my father-in-law spouted off about why the Rotary Club couldn’t \*\*possibly \*\*admit women. I notice that both the Rotary Club and my father-in-law are still going strong. Not letting women into that club was hooey and it’s the same with the Masons; it’ll just take you guys a little longer to realize it. If you want a way out, just swear an oath that makes you symbolically dead and ready for rebirth into the \*\*21st \*\*century, then take another oath that cleans up all the ridiculous restrictions and Bob’s your uncle. Or Bea’s your aunt, however you want it. Is a man’s reason for joining so thoroughly and intensely questioned that anyone would even know that he wanted to join for business reasons? If Masons don’t wear silly hats, shouldn’t someone tell the Shriners? ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2005, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organizations-discriminating-based-on-gender/281700/164 "2005-01-06T07:25:49Z")
> [@infamousmom](#): > > Hee hee… lordy, why would I want to join?..\ I’m not out to join up. I’m just having a great laugh at all the guys who so vehemently defend the silly policies. Reminds me of all the **Really Good Reasons** my father-in-law spouted off about why the Rotary Club couldn’t \*\*possibly \*\*admit women. I notice that both the Rotary Club and my father-in-law are still going strong. Not letting women into that club was hooey and it’s the same with the Masons; it’ll just take you guys a little longer to realize it. So in other words, you’re just being a jerk, like Shannon Faulkner at the Citadel. She was dishonest on her application, she wanted to prove a point (what that was I have no idea, what with the gazillion schools to choose from including the far more prestigious service academies), and then she quit. Well done. Are you the same way? Just want to “break the barriers” so you can confirm that you’re not being left out and then quit? If men want to have their private clubs then they can. If women want their little private clubs then they can. And quit whining about it. Geez. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2005, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organizations-discriminating-based-on-gender/281700/165 "2005-01-06T13:06:14Z")
Studies in sociology have shown the correlation between gender segregation and gender inequality, which means a lower status for women. Less gender segregation, more equality for women. One can argue that correlation does not necessarily imply causality, but the sociology shows that it is the gender segregation that contributes to the inequality. Cite: see _The Gendered Society_ by Michael S. Kimmel. As an American, I believe the American ideals I was raised on, including equality. I support ways to increase the equality of this society and criticize things that produce inequality. This is why I would be happy to see gender segregation ended. Glad that it mostly has already, and for those stick-in-the-muds who want to preserve such an outdated practice, I just ask them to be aware of its effect on society and whether they want to perpetrate inequality for women. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2005, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organizations-discriminating-based-on-gender/281700/166 "2005-01-06T13:44:21Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > One can argue that correlation does not necessarily imply causality, but the sociology shows that it is the gender segregation that contributes to the inequality. Cite: see _The Gendered Society_ by Michael S. Kimmel. Does Kimmel say that it’s the actual segregation that contributes or does he acknowledge the fact that in most cases (ie, Rotary Club example above), the segregation is accompanied by blocked opportunity? ---
**Author:** ![Wrath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ee7513/32.png) [@Wrath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wrath)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2005, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organizations-discriminating-based-on-gender/281700/167 "2005-01-06T13:59:40Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > Studies in sociology have shown the correlation between gender segregation and gender inequality, which means a lower status for women. Less gender segregation, more equality for women. Do these studies show that ladies’ night out, women-only clubs and women-only self-help groups also contribute to a lower status for women? Or were the studies gender-biased against men? ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2005, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organizations-discriminating-based-on-gender/281700/168 "2005-01-06T14:28:00Z")
This sort of thread always confuses me. For the record I am a card carrying (NOW) feminist. And one of the things that I value more than anything in my life is my women’s only club. There is no good reason not to let the guys come - except WE PREFER IT THAT WAY. Do men lose out on economic opportunities because they can’t join? - possibly…the purpose of the club isn’t career networking, but its happened. For that matter, I’ve been to a few “women in IT” meetings. I know men are missing out on networking opportunities there by exclusion. In fact, thats pretty much the purpose of the group - to allow women to network in a male dominated field. As women and women’s groups gain more power (and small businessmen who belong to the Rotary Club get pushed out by big companies), the status gap these clubs contribute to will shrink and disappear. I’m not trading my sexist club for inclusion in someone elses sexist club. (OK, maybe Augusta. But just because its a really nice golf course). ---
**Author:** ![infamousmom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/d6d6ee/32.png) [@infamousmom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/infamousmom)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2005, 9:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organizations-discriminating-based-on-gender/281700/169 "2005-01-07T09:20:23Z")
> [@Airman Doors](#): > > So in other words, you’re just being a jerk, like Shannon Faulkner at the Citadel. She was dishonest on her application, she wanted to prove a point (what that was I have no idea, what with the gazillion schools to choose from including the far more prestigious service academies), and then she quit. Well done. Are you the same way? Just want to “break the barriers” so you can confirm that you’re not being left out and then quit? > > If men want to have their private clubs then they can. If women want their little private clubs then they can. And quit whining about it. Geez. Well, if you can show me any place where I ever said I wanted to join the Masons… I ain’t holding my breath, though. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organizations-discriminating-based-on-gender/281700.md?page=8)