# Organizations having security specifically to defend against police **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [September 1, 2017, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organizations-having-security-specifically-to-defend-against-police/795258 "2017-09-01T17:38:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![BombVoyage](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eada6e/32.png) [@BombVoyage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BombVoyage)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2017, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organizations-having-security-specifically-to-defend-against-police/795258/1 "2017-09-01T17:38:53Z")
Seeing all the negative camera footage and press lately (and no so lately) about police - specifically the Utah nurse being arrested for following the law… What would happen if this trend continued and organizations started having security with the explicit orders to defend against the police? What would be the legal ramifications if an organization’s security confronted a police officer bullying an employee of the organization for following the law? This scenario still seems farfetched to me…but I live in a world now where the President can and does really want to abuse his powers…where police have been under fire for many years and still can’t get their manure in one central location and may even be getting worse…I can almost see organizations starting to want to defend themselves against the police. ---
**Author:** ![steatopygia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steatopygia/32/3132_2.png) [@steatopygia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steatopygia)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2017, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organizations-having-security-specifically-to-defend-against-police/795258/2 "2017-09-01T18:58:31Z")
No, we are nowhere near that point. I have been that nurse in the story. Right up to the point where the cop decided to arrest her. That is an aberration not a trend. When it becomes a trend that will be the time to rethink things. Hiring security to protect from the police will not be the way to fix that problem. I think the University police did exactly what I would expect them to do. They are not the same as the City (or whatever) police. I personally think that cop should be fired. He cannot control himself in what really should be a low stress situation. ---
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2017, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organizations-having-security-specifically-to-defend-against-police/795258/3 "2017-09-01T19:07:44Z")
Can someone link to an article about the incident for those who missed it? ---
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2017, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organizations-having-security-specifically-to-defend-against-police/795258/4 "2017-09-01T19:24:20Z")
This, I think: [Nurse arrested in Utah for not allowing police to take blood from an unconscious patient](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2017/09/01/this-is-crazy-sobs-utah-hospital-nurse-as-cop-roughs-her-up-arrests-her-for-doing-her-job/). ---
**Author:** ![DinoR](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dinor/32/2821_2.png) [@DinoR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DinoR)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2017, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organizations-having-security-specifically-to-defend-against-police/795258/5 "2017-09-01T20:00:24Z")
The right solution for that problem is lawyers. We legally empower police to make arrests. In addition we allow them to use reasonable force to make those arrests. As a society, there’s a reason we do that. If the justification for the arrest is in dispute, or outright wrong, private security threatening force against the police is not a good result that we want to see a lot more of. Those private security essentially put themselves in line to be arrested and potentially sentenced, as well. Lawyers, as much as I hate saying these words, are the solution that avoids fights over arrests in our streets, businesses and hospitals. Private security would just escalate the problem into something even worse. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2017, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organizations-having-security-specifically-to-defend-against-police/795258/6 "2017-09-01T20:11:01Z")
There are already many such organizations, and have been for a long time. I can’t say I look kindly on them, though. ---
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2017, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organizations-having-security-specifically-to-defend-against-police/795258/7 "2017-09-01T20:22:26Z")
The hospital handled it the right way. Two cops who don’t know what they’re doing have been exposed as such and can hopefully be retrained or let go. ---
**Author:** ![busterpickle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/258eb7/32.png) [@busterpickle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/busterpickle)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2017, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organizations-having-security-specifically-to-defend-against-police/795258/8 "2017-09-02T02:25:03Z")
Going by the article and the full length video, that LEO chose the wrong path. And had he gotten a blood sample it would have been inadmissible in the end. What was that guy thinking? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2017, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organizations-having-security-specifically-to-defend-against-police/795258/9 "2017-09-02T02:58:18Z")
Generally speaking, any security guard that does this is going to be arrested for interfering with a police officer. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2017, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organizations-having-security-specifically-to-defend-against-police/795258/10 "2017-09-02T03:58:51Z")
Wait, was the police officer demanding to draw the blood sample himself? The article (one of them anyway) seems to mention that he was trained to do that. Or was he demanding that the nurse draw the blood sample? If the cop was trying to draw the sample himself (and somehow had brought all his own equipment, like a syringe, to do so), and the nurse or hospital staff was trying to prevent him, then the nurse and staff might well have been obstructing an officer. (The shit can all hit the fan after-the-fact.) Is this what was going on? (I didn’t see the video myself.) If the cop was demanding that the nurse draw the blood, or demanding that the hospital supply him with the syringe to do so, then I can’t imagine why the nurse and hospital would be under any obligation to cooperate with that. Which case was it? ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2017, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organizations-having-security-specifically-to-defend-against-police/795258/11 "2017-09-02T04:10:52Z")
From The Salt Lake Tribune, “Payne is one of about 10 officers who are certified to take blood from people who have been involved in serious crashes or other accidents, or are suspected of driving under the influence, Judd said. They carry their own blood-draw kits, she said, and are often called upon by other police departments, such as Logan, to take blood at Salt Lake City hospitals.” ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2017, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organizations-having-security-specifically-to-defend-against-police/795258/12 "2017-09-02T04:35:42Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > If the cop was demanding that the nurse draw the blood, or demanding that the hospital supply him with the syringe to do so, then I can’t imagine why the nurse and hospital would be under any obligation to cooperate with that. This officer was asking to draw it himself, but nurses and doctors _have_ been illegally arrested in other cities for refusing to draw blood on behalf of cops. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2017, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organizations-having-security-specifically-to-defend-against-police/795258/13 "2017-09-02T04:41:02Z")
Since the OP requires speculation, let’s move this to IMHO. Colibri General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2017, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organizations-having-security-specifically-to-defend-against-police/795258/14 "2017-09-02T05:36:00Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > Wait, was the police officer demanding to draw the blood sample himself? The article (one of them anyway) seems to mention that he was trained to do that. Or was he demanding that the nurse draw the blood sample? > > If the cop was trying to draw the sample himself (and somehow had brought all his own equipment, like a syringe, to do so), and the nurse or hospital staff was trying to prevent him, then the nurse and staff might well have been obstructing an officer. (The shit can all hit the fan after-the-fact.) Is this what was going on? (I didn’t see the video myself.) > > If the cop was demanding that the nurse draw the blood, or demanding that the hospital supply him with the syringe to do so, then I can’t imagine why the nurse and hospital would be under any obligation to cooperate with that. > > Which case was it? The detective had no authority to draw blood from that patient. The patient was unconscious, so was unable to give consent. The officer had no warrant to draw blood from him, and the patient was not under arrest. > [@](#): > > Hospital policy specified police needed either a judge’s order or the patient’s consent, or the patient needed to be under arrest, before obtaining a blood sample. > [@](#): > > Wubbels’ attorney, Karra Porter, said Friday the university and Salt Lake City police had agreed to the policy more than a year ago and “the officers here appeared to be unaware of” it. > > “There’s no dispute that the blood draw policy was jointly prepared and in effect for quite some time,” Porter told CNN. > **[Utah nurse’s arrest prompts police apology | CNN](https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2017/09/01/health/utah-nurse-arrest-police-video/index.html)** > > Salt Lake City police apologize for arresting Utah nurse Alex Wubbels, who refused to draw blood from a patient. The arrest was caught on body camera footage. > [@](#): > > On top of that, Wubbels was right. The U.S. Supreme Court has explicitly ruled that blood can only be drawn from drivers for probable cause, with a warrant. > [@](#): > > Wubbels’s attorney Karra Porter said that Payne believed he was authorized to collect the blood under “implied consent,” according to the Tribune. But Porter said “implied consent” law changed in Utah a decade ago. And in 2016, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that warrantless blood tests were illegal. > **[‘This is crazy,’ sobs Utah hospital nurse as cop roughs her up, arrests her...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2017/09/01/this-is-crazy-sobs-utah-hospital-nurse-as-cop-roughs-her-up-arrests-her-for-doing-her-job/?utm_term=.bcd26966689c)** > > Police video shows the moment Detective Jeff Payne snapped at nurse Alex Wubbels after she told him hospital policy barred him from collecting blood samples without a warrant or patient consent. Officer Payne exceeded his authority. He was operating on his understanding of a law that was a decade out of date. I’m not an attorney, but it’s clear to me that the nurse was not only not interfering with an officer, but had a duty to prevent him from drawing the blood. ---
**Author:** ![jtur88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e9c0ed/32.png) [@jtur88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jtur88)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2017, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/organizations-having-security-specifically-to-defend-against-police/795258/15 "2017-09-02T05:57:05Z")
The Bill of Rights has its own Preamble (not usually printed, you have to search for it), which says the Amendments are added to prevent the abuse of Constitutional provisions. Those include the right to bear arms, which implies that we have a right to arm ourselves against any abuse of the Constitution’s powers, even if exercised by the police. [http://www.billofrights.org/](http://www.billofrights.org/)