# Orhodox Jews question about Kadish **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 30, 2007, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orhodox-jews-question-about-kadish/390185 "2007-01-30T22:46:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![MannyL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@MannyL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MannyL)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2007, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orhodox-jews-question-about-kadish/390185/1 "2007-01-30T22:46:21Z")
I have a friend who has a friend who was told that because she is a woman she is not supposed to say the Kadish. Further she was told that g\_d was not listening to her because a woman saying the Kadish is considered a sin. Is there something in the Talmud that shows that a woman is not to say the Kadish? ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2007, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orhodox-jews-question-about-kadish/390185/2 "2007-01-30T23:03:18Z")
Women are indeed not supposed to say Kaddish. Kadish is a form of leading communal prayer. Only men are obligated to pray with the Minyan, and only those obligated in doing a certain thing are allowed to lead others in doing that. Women are optionally allowed to pray with the Minyan, but not to lead the service, since their level of obligation is less than that of the people she’d be leading. That said, I’m not sure that it would actually be sinful, since G-d’s name is not actually said within the Kaddish. It’s certainly against tradition, which we Orthodox do not take lightly. ---
**Author:** ![Nawth\_Chucka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c57346/32.png) [@Nawth\_Chucka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nawth_Chucka)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2007, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orhodox-jews-question-about-kadish/390185/3 "2007-01-31T00:38:51Z")
[QUOTE=cmkeller] That said, I’m not sure that it would actually be sinful, since G-d’s name is not actually said within the Kaddish… [/QUOTE] ?? The first line (English) is ‘Exalted and sanctified is G-d’s great name’; what am I missing? I’m not being snarky, I’m goyische and it’s not obvious to me. (I only know the Mourner’s Kaddish.) ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2007, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orhodox-jews-question-about-kadish/390185/4 "2007-01-31T01:45:43Z")
[QUOTE=Nawth Chucka] ?? The first line (English) is ‘Exalted and sanctified is G-d’s great name’; what am I missing? I’m not being snarky, I’m goyische and it’s not obvious to me. (I only know the Mourner’s Kaddish.) [/QUOTE] But the [Tetragrammaton](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetragrammaton), or four letter name of God, doesn’t appear in the kaddish. Jewish issues relating to the “name of God” usually refer to that, not to some other collection of words used to denote God (which you do find in the kiddush). ---
**Author:** ![Randy\_Seltzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ee7513/32.png) [@Randy\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Randy_Seltzer)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2007, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orhodox-jews-question-about-kadish/390185/5 "2007-01-31T01:51:26Z")
[QUOTE=Anne Neville] But the [Tetragrammaton](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetragrammaton), or four letter name of God, doesn’t appear in the kaddish. Jewish issues relating to the “name of God” usually refer to that, not to some other collection of words used to denote God (which you do find in the kiddush). [/QUOTE] The tetragrammaton doesn’t appear in **any** modern Jewish prayers, and AFAIK, hasn’t since the days of the 2nd temple. Also, somewhat on topic, in most sects of Judaism women can join the minyan, but don’t count towards your ten required people. So you can have 100 women in a group, and nine men, but that group still can’t pray. My sister was on an El Al flight from Tel Aviv to Toronto, and it was delayed on the tarmac for a couple of hours. Someone in my sis’s section suggested praying to kill the time, and sis had to switch seats with someone to accomodate the minyan. She didn’t count. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2007, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orhodox-jews-question-about-kadish/390185/6 "2007-01-31T03:00:32Z")
Did you ever read _Davidel’s Harp_? This was a pretty important plot point. ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2007, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orhodox-jews-question-about-kadish/390185/7 "2007-01-31T03:04:27Z")
Conservative and Reform Jews would certainly say that a woman can say Kaddish. The great majority of Conservative Jews would count women towards a minyan; all Reform Jews would. ---
**Author:** ![Nawth\_Chucka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c57346/32.png) [@Nawth\_Chucka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nawth_Chucka)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2007, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orhodox-jews-question-about-kadish/390185/8 "2007-01-31T05:29:12Z")
[QUOTE=Monty] Did you ever read _Davidel’s Harp_? This was a pretty important plot point. [/QUOTE] _nitpick__Davita’s Harp_. That’s the story that made me want to learn the Kaddish. [Taking a deep breath so Chaim Potok adoration hijack is narrowly avoided…] ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2007, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orhodox-jews-question-about-kadish/390185/9 "2007-01-31T20:55:07Z")
> [@](#): > > I have a friend who has a friend who was told that because she is a woman she is not supposed to say the Kadish. Further she was told that g\_d was not listening to her because a woman saying the Kadish is considered a sin. I _do_ hope your friend’s friend managed to say it with a little more sensitivity and tact than that. Being mean to people who are grieving is a sin, too. [QUOTE=Randy Seltzer] The tetragrammaton doesn’t appear in **any** modern Jewish prayers, and AFAIK, hasn’t since the days of the 2nd temple. [/quote] It does appear in some parts of the Jewish liturgy- the Shema, for example. We don’t attempt to pronounce it as it was pronounced by the High Priest in the Temple, though. > [@](#): > > Also, somewhat on topic, in most sects of Judaism women can join the minyan, but don’t count towards your ten required people. So you can have 100 women in a group, and nine men, but that group still can’t pray. That’s not true in most Conservative or Reform congregations. Women do count toward a minyan in those. ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2007, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orhodox-jews-question-about-kadish/390185/10 "2007-02-01T02:06:47Z")
…and, **MannyL** , if your friend wants to say kaddish, she would be very welcomed at any Conservative or Reform synagogue. My synagogue, for example, is about as close to Orthodox as one can come aside from being gender egalitarian. ---
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2007, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orhodox-jews-question-about-kadish/390185/11 "2007-02-01T02:20:24Z")
[QUOTE=Nawth Chucka] ?? The first line (English) is ‘Exalted and sanctified is G-d’s great name’; what am I missing? [/QUOTE] A more literal translation would be “… His great name”. That translator chose to avoid ambiguity, and tell you Who that pronoun refers to. But the original text has the pronoun (His) rather than a proper name (G-d). [QUOTE=cmkeller] Women are indeed not supposed to say Kaddish. [/QUOTE] This is not a unanimous view. Some do allow women to say it. For example, see the opinion of Rabbi Eliyahu Henkin, quoted at [this](http://www.daat.ac.il/daat/english/tfila/frimer2-1.htm) site. (It’s about halfway down; search on “Henkin” to find it more easily.) ---
**Author:** ![Scuba\_Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Scuba\_Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scuba_Ben)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2007, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orhodox-jews-question-about-kadish/390185/12 "2007-02-01T02:58:42Z")
[QUOTE=Keeve] A more literal translation would be “… His great name”. That translator chose to avoid ambiguity, and tell you Who that pronoun refers to. But the original text has the pronoun (His) rather than a proper name (G-d). [/QUOTE] The original Aramaic is “… _sh’mei raba_.” _Shem_ means “name,” and the -ei suffix means “his” – Hebrew and Aramaic are gender-positive languages, and have no way to express a neutral gender. “Rabba” means “great.” Compare with the name for the 7th day of Sukkot, Hoshanah Rabbah, “The Great Hoshanah.” (So named for the seven prayers recited on that day, where the refrain is “Hosha na” – “help us.”) ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2007, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orhodox-jews-question-about-kadish/390185/13 "2007-02-01T03:10:46Z")
[QUOTE=Keeve] This is not a unanimous view. Some do allow women to say it. For example, see the opinion of Rabbi Eliyahu Henkin, quoted at [this](http://www.daat.ac.il/daat/english/tfila/frimer2-1.htm) site. (It’s about halfway down; search on “Henkin” to find it more easily.) [/QUOTE] And here’s an article by Joel Wolowelsky (who’s currently dean of faculty at the Yeshiva of Flatbush, and writes a lot about the role of women in Judaism), arguing that women saying Kaddish is halachically acceptable (with certain limitations), that it’s traditionally been allowed, and that the flat dismissal of it by a lot of Orthodox poskim today is more motivated by public policy then halacha. > **[News Archives](https://www.findarticles.com/news/)** > > Explore the News Articles featuring Technology, Business, Entertainment, and Science & Health topics. Access reports, insights, and stories. He ends with the conclusion: > [@](#): > > One cannot deny an author the right to side with those authorities who forbid a daughter to say Kaddish. But he must be prepared to include in his presentation those sources with which he does not agree. The halakhic legitimacy of women saying Kaddish is unassailable even if not universally accepted. Thus, even if a rabbi feels that it is in society’s best interest not to allow an orphaned daughter to say Kaddish, he should make it clear that he knows that other poskim hold otherwise. That is the approach responsible poskim regularly follow in all other areas of halakhah when answering personal questions. In a healthy halakhic community, people generally feel bound by their personal halakhic authority. > > While many will pass up the opportunity to exercise an option which all agree is not obligatory, finding solace in a more passive role, a woman who regularly attends shul will feel resentment when she learns later that a most meaningful, legitimate option was withheld from her. The rabbi, in his role as counselor, has an obligation to bring all legitimate options to the attention of the mourner. ---
**Author:** ![Lynwood\_Slim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Lynwood\_Slim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynwood_Slim)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2007, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orhodox-jews-question-about-kadish/390185/14 "2007-02-01T04:42:03Z")
Thanks so much for that article. One can derive from both the halakha and minhag (custom) cited there that women are permitted to say kaddish, and required if there is no surviving son – It seems that anyone who prevents them is preventing kiddush ha-shem (sanctifying God’s name). When I have heard people discuss this issue, I have heard every reason that the author so clearly refutes. ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2007, 8:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orhodox-jews-question-about-kadish/390185/15 "2007-02-01T08:18:33Z")
[QUOTE=C K Dexter Haven] …and, **MannyL** , if your friend wants to say kaddish, she would be very welcomed at any Conservative or Reform synagogue. My synagogue, for example, is about as close to Orthodox as one can come aside from being gender egalitarian. [/QUOTE] Seconded. My Conservative MIL recently said Kaddish for her mother. ---
**Author:** ![Jinx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Jinx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jinx)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2007, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orhodox-jews-question-about-kadish/390185/16 "2007-02-01T12:15:13Z")
[QUOTE=MannyL] …Is there something in the Talmud that shows that a woman is not to say the Kadish [because it is a sin]? [/QUOTE] I see a lot of banter, but no direct answer to your question. Not suppose to say the Kaddish? To the best of my knowledge, there is nothing explicit about this prayer…no more explicit than any other prayer. I do not believe women are banned from saying any prayer. The only issue is that women do not count towards a minyan (i.e. a quarum of ten) when group prayer is required…even if the group is specifically meeting to mourn for the loss of a woman’s own father or husband! The orthodox ways are utterly ridiculous in this regard. In the eyes of the orthodox, women are only good for birthing and housekeeping. Now, the real question is…where is this written? Did g-d say this, or just the rabbis to keep the women in line..and the chicken soup flowing? :dubious: - Jinx ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2007, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orhodox-jews-question-about-kadish/390185/17 "2007-02-01T13:37:07Z")
I don’t think, **Jinx** , that there is any final answer because there are differences of opinion within the Orthodox groups. The Conservative and Reform groups are unanimous in permitting a woman to say kaddish. (I am actually glad to know that there are Orthodox groups that permitte women to say kaddish.) ---
**Author:** ![Scuba\_Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Scuba\_Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scuba_Ben)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2007, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orhodox-jews-question-about-kadish/390185/18 "2007-02-01T15:34:55Z")
[QUOTE=Jinx] I see a lot of banter, but no direct answer to your question. Not suppose to say the Kaddish? To the best of my knowledge, there is nothing explicit about this prayer…no more explicit than any other prayer. I do not believe women are banned from saying any prayer. The only issue is that women do not count towards a minyan (i.e. a quarum of ten) when group prayer is required…even if the group is specifically meeting to mourn for the loss of a woman’s own father or husband! The orthodox ways are utterly ridiculous in this regard. In the eyes of the orthodox, women are only good for birthing and housekeeping. Now, the real question is…where is this written? Did g-d say this, or just the rabbis to keep the women in line..and the chicken soup flowing? :dubious: - Jinx [/QUOTE] The issue is that women are subject to the physiological requirements of menstruation, pregnancy, and nursing, and therefore in Judaism are not bound by religious requirements for organized, scheduled prayer. In other words, given a baby who wants/needs to be fed RIGHT NOW, a mother should feed the baby instead of rushing off to shul for services. From there, I think, arose the concept that women don’t count towards a minyan, and so weren’t _allowed_ to take part in prayer. It seems inappropriate to me, the claim that “a woman isn’t bound by the requirement to fulfil a mitzvah, therefore a woman is not permitted to fulfil the mitzvah.” (But my background is egalitarian Conservative.) ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2007, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orhodox-jews-question-about-kadish/390185/19 "2007-02-02T20:04:45Z")
Keeve and Captain Amazing, thank you for educating me - I had not been aware that there are opinions that allow it. Jinx: > [@](#): > > I do not believe women are banned from saying any prayer. They’re not banned from saying it, but (with some possible exceptions, as Keeve et al have cited) they can’t lead men in prayer that men are obligated in. > [@](#): > > The only issue is that women do not count towards a minyan (i.e. a quorum of ten) when group prayer is required…even if the group is specifically meeting to mourn for the loss of a woman’s own father or husband! The orthodox ways are utterly ridiculous in this regard. In the eyes of the orthodox, women are only good for birthing and housekeeping. Now, the real question is…where is this written? Did g-d say this, or just the rabbis to keep the women in line..and the chicken soup flowing? The Rabbis interpret G-d’s word (i.e., the Torah) as indicating that women are not obligated in commandments with a time requirement, and also as indicating that the level of divine service of one who is obligated to do something doing that thing is greater than the level of divine service of one who is not obligated to do something doing that thing. Put the two together, and the logical result is that one who is not obligated cannot lead one who is obligated in that particular observance.