# Oriental -- round 2 **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 12, 2004, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oriental-round-2/268878 "2004-10-12T20:55:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2004, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oriental-round-2/268878/41 "2004-10-13T16:05:45Z")
Bah! It’s been going on for ages. First the therapsids and dinosaurians broke off all relations with the reptiles then the reptiles factionalized into lizards, snakes, turtles, pterosaurs, etc, “Oooh! I have no legs! I’m being oppressed!” Pretty soon there were so many factions not speaking to each other over seemingly unimportant bits of dogma you’d think they were Baptists. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2004, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oriental-round-2/268878/42 "2004-10-13T16:20:50Z")
> [@jjimm](#): > > Surely that’s way more generic, if not moreso, than the specifically ‘Far Eastern’ meaning of ‘Oriental’? “Oriental” isn’t really specifically “Far Eastern”. Historically it was used to refer to anything east of Europe, sometimes even anything east of _Western_ Europe. Even today the term is still sometimes used to refer specifically to the “Near East” and not the “Far East”. Where do Oriental rugs usually come from? The [Okayama Orient Museum](http://www.city.okayama.okayama.jp/orientmuseum/orient-e/) is devoted to art and artifacts from various Middle Eastern cultures, not Japanese art. If it’s a question of being specific, I think naming the actual continent you’re talking about is a bit more clear. If people want to talk about just the “Far East”, it’s easy enough to say “East Asian”. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2004, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oriental-round-2/268878/43 "2004-10-13T16:25:20Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > “Oriental” isn’t really specifically “Far Eastern”. But what does it colloquially mean today? > [@](#): > > If people want to talk about just the “Far East”, it’s easy enough to say “East Asian”. But that isn’t what was being requested. The request was “Asian”. > [@Evil Captor](#): > > here’s an over-the-top **donnybrook** of a Pit thread I hope you realise how insulting that is to people from Dublin. 😉 (Seriously, though I knew of its existence, that’s the first time I’ve ever heard that word used in earnest.) ---
**Author:** ![Hyperelastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Hyperelastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hyperelastic)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2004, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oriental-round-2/268878/44 "2004-10-13T16:46:17Z")
> [@jjimm](#): > > Incidentally, I once wore a SOAS t-shirt when I was living in Hong Kong, and my Chinese friends were totally bemused. “What has Africa to do with us?” they asked. Indeed, they seemed quite insulted, and not in a good way. That was one of those inscrutable Oriental customs - cultural chauvinism. ---
**Author:** ![Terminus\_Est](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terminus_est/32/3087_2.png) [@Terminus\_Est](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terminus_Est)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2004, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oriental-round-2/268878/45 "2004-10-13T17:02:59Z")
> [@Yamirskoonir](#): > > You see, said best friend had always told me this pissed her off because she, her family, and all her Filipino friends considered themselves to be “Pacific Islander,” and not even remotely “Asian.” I never questioned her assertion on the matter, seeing as she was the Filipino and should be the expert on her own heritage. > > Well, gosh durn it. Who am I to believe? My friend and her immediate group here in Southern California, who choose to label themselves according to their beliefs, or the professionals who make careers of defining geographic regions and studying Filipino culture? > > Not to hijack a pit thread or anything, but my question is not rhetorical. I really want to know! I’m Filipino and I’m Asian. Southeast Asian, to be specific. All of the other Filipinos I know, who live in, like, the Philippines, consider themselves to be Asian. If Filipinos are “Pacific Islanders”, then so should Indonesians and Malaysians, since we all live in islands on the Pacific. But these three countries got together, along with some other nations on the mainland, to form the [Association of Southeast Asian Nations](http://www.aseansec.org/home.htm). ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2004, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oriental-round-2/268878/46 "2004-10-13T17:05:46Z")
> [@jjimm](#): > > But what does it colloquially mean today? Either “Near Eastern” or “Far Eastern”, depending on the context and the intent of the speaker. When speaking of people it’s almost always the latter (the former are more often called “Arabs” or “Muslims”, whether they actually are or not), but with things it could be either one. Oriental food? Probably Chinese, maybe Japanese. Oriental carpets? Probably Turkish or Persian/Iranian. ---
**Author:** ![Yamirskoonir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/c0e974/32.png) [@Yamirskoonir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yamirskoonir)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2004, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oriental-round-2/268878/47 "2004-10-13T17:17:48Z")
> [@Terminus Est](#): > > I’m Filipino and I’m Asian. Southeast Asian, to be specific. All of the other Filipinos I know, who live in, like, the Philippines, consider themselves to be Asian. If Filipinos are “Pacific Islanders”, then so should Indonesians and Malaysians, since we all live in islands on the Pacific. But these three countries got together, along with some other nations on the mainland, to form the [Association of Southeast Asian Nations](http://www.aseansec.org/home.htm). Thanks for the additional info. Hmmm…I think I see where my friend might have gotten a little screwed up. See, until this thread, I had always thought “Oriental” referred to a specific Asian subset of “Chinese, Japanese, and Korean,” as there is a severe “anti-asian” sentiment against these particular three nationalities in my local community and they are the ones always being called “Oriental” (and it’s all very stupid, believe me!). Perhaps my friend also misunderstood the meaning of “Oriental” and resented being viewed as “Chinese, Japanese or Korean,” especially given the strong anti-asian bias in her hometown? As to where she got the idea that she’s “Pacific Islander”…well, let’s just blame the severe gaps in public education. Homegirl had 48 absences in one class in the second semester of her senior year, and she STILL got a “B.” That one boggles me to this day… ---
**Author:** ![Darwins\_Finch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darwins_finch/32/20304_2.png) [@Darwins\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darwins_Finch)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2004, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oriental-round-2/268878/48 "2004-10-13T17:40:14Z")
> [@OtakuLoki](#): > > {nitpick} > > Wouldn’t this be more accurately called Pan-Saurian Unity? Or has the PSU movement collapsed into factionalism already? > > Only 65 million years and already things are dissolving into familial squabbles. ☹ > > {/nitpick} I, myself, am a strict segregationist and prefer not to sully the good name of “dinosaur” with all those lesser saurians. Let them keep to their own taxa! “Pan-Saurian Unity” - ptooey! ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2004, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oriental-round-2/268878/49 "2004-10-13T19:09:53Z")
> [@roger thornhill](#): > > “Orientals” conjures up images of Charley Chan, Kato (Clouseau’s “little Oriental friend”) and slit eyes. Images of servility or stupidity, figures of fun or deceit. Then the problem isn’t with the word, it’s with the association. Change that, and the problem’s gone. I, personally, think you could do a fun, inoffensive remake of the “Charlie Chan” movies with the right premise. Cast Jackie Chan as Charlie, the patriarchial detective; toss in a number of up-and-coming Asian actors as his sons; throw in a script that’s equal parts comedy, mystery, and action flick; then put in a blender and set to “Frappe”. Anyone wanna buy a script? ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2004, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oriental-round-2/268878/50 "2004-10-13T19:31:33Z")
> [@I Love Me](#): > > I had never heard of anyone being offended by the term ‘Oriental’ describing people until I moved to California. Interestingly, it is only the hyper-sensitive PC whiteys that are bothered by this term here-- NOT any of the Asian people I have spoken to. _Small-sample_ fallacy. Any “you have spoken to”, doesn’t cut it. A simple google search will find you countless Asians who prefer the term “Asian” over “Oriental”. There have even been Asians in this _very forum_ who have said so. Even in _this very thread_. Or do a web search for organizations called “Oriental [such and such…]” vs. "Asian [such and such…] You will find that it’s quite uncommon in the United States to use “Oriental” to describe people. You almost have to be willfully ignorant to pretend it’s not the case. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2004, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oriental-round-2/268878/51 "2004-10-13T19:42:28Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > I honestly think the controversy was ginned up by some ivory tower types and then taken up gleefully by the PC types, the brown shirts of language as it were. Always glad to stick a thumb in THEIR eyes in when I can. I guess I just don’t understand this attitude. Rather than get all red-faced, and feel put-upon, and curse the “PC” types, I find it much easier to extend the simple courtesy of calling people “Asian” when they have clearly expressed the desire to be addressed as such. I have done so most of my life, and it has caused me absolutely no injury whatsoever. I just don’t understand the purpose of deliberately seeking to offend people. Even if you DO think they’re too “PC”, why would you go out of your way to “stick a thumb in their eye?” ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2004, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oriental-round-2/268878/52 "2004-10-13T19:45:12Z")
And to stave off the inevitable misinterpretation of what I’ve said, let me point out that there’s a big difference between not _being aware_ of the issue, and still choosing to ignore the issue _after_ becoming aware of it. ---
**Author:** ![TellMeI\_mNotCrazy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tellmei_mnotcrazy/32/3419_2.png) [@TellMeI\_mNotCrazy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TellMeI_mNotCrazy)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2004, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oriental-round-2/268878/53 "2004-10-13T19:47:14Z")
I’m half-Asian, and I’m not at all offended by Oriental. And I never even knew someone MIGHT consider it offensive until I used the word in a conversation with my brother (also half-Asian) who “informed” me that Oriental applies to objects, not to people, which makes about zero sense to me. But in light of the fact that maybe some people do find it offensive for reasons that (even with explanations) I don’t really understand, I just stick with Asian, or a specific reference to the country, and leave it all alone. ---
**Author:** ![Terminus\_Est](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terminus_est/32/3087_2.png) [@Terminus\_Est](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terminus_Est)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2004, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oriental-round-2/268878/54 "2004-10-13T19:51:02Z")
As I said in a previous post, I’m Filipino, so you can call me Asian if you like. I wasn’t aware that I should be offended by being called “Oriental”. And this is the sticking point: who decided that “Oriental” was offensive? White men in their ivory towers? 😉 Certainly not this Oriental. I’m frankly more offended if you misspell my nationality “Filipino” or my country “Philippines”. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2004, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oriental-round-2/268878/55 "2004-10-13T20:02:26Z")
> [@Terminus Est](#): > > As I said in a previous post, I’m Filipino, so you can call me Asian if you like. I wasn’t aware that I should be offended by being called “Oriental”. And this is the sticking point: who decided that “Oriental” was offensive? White men in their ivory towers? 😉 No, it wasn’t started by white people. IIRC it began as a movement of Asian students in the 1970s or 80s. ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Tan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/charlie_tan/32/12582_2.png) [@Charlie\_Tan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Tan)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2004, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oriental-round-2/268878/56 "2004-10-13T21:06:29Z")
It’s fun to follow the PC disussions all you Occidentals have. What? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oriental-round-2/268878/57 "2004-10-14T00:05:13Z")
> [@blowero](#): > > I guess I just don’t understand this attitude. Rather than get all red-faced, and feel put-upon, and curse the “PC” types, I find it much easier to extend the simple courtesy of calling people “Asian” when they have clearly expressed the desire to be addressed as such. I have done so most of my life, and it has caused me absolutely no injury whatsoever. I just don’t understand the purpose of deliberately seeking to offend people. Even if you DO think they’re too “PC”, why would you go out of your way to “stick a thumb in their eye?” I’m unwilling to give up the word Oriental because it has so many GOOD associations for me. To me it conveys images of sampans gliding across moonlit rivers, their lamps reflected on the water while spilling bits of exotic music and happy chatter across the river, of intricately carved jade figurines whose presence or absence could spell certain doom to certain parties, of dusty silk road trails where banditti have to be paid off or fought off, of crowds of people wearing delicately patterned, brightly colored clothes going on mysterious errands in a bustling city. Many of the associations I have for the term are outdated, but that’s OK, it still is a good word for those associations. I understand that for some people the term “Oriental” has the tinge of greasy racism that pervades the writings of, say H.P. Lovecraft (not sure he ever used the term) and the writers who used the words “yellow peril” so freely at one time. It just doesn’t have that association for me, and I resent you FOISTING it on me when the term has so many good associations for me. You’re akin to the culture thugs who go after Huckleberry Finn because it has the word “nigger” in it a lot. You’d like to trash something good for a bit of personal puffery, a feeling that you’re just a wee bit superior to those who use That Bad Word Nobody Should Ever Have Used Anyway. Now I know that some claim that the word “Oriental” isn’t even at issue, that so long as you don’t use it for people, it’s OK. And to me it is a word that doesn’t work so well to describe people. Not that it’s necessarily derogatory, it just has the wrong connotations. But I don’t believe you for a minute when you say you aren’t after the word itself. You really are attempting to change the meaning of the word Oriental by giving it that greasy racist tinge, and I don’t like that. Frex, the term “gay” still has a meaning of happy and cheerful, but it’s impossible to use it nowadays without referencing its other meaning relating to homosexuality. It’s been rurnt as a simple descriptor of good cheer. Now, “gay” I can do without, though no other word describes the 1890s quite so well. Happy and cheerful are fine synonyms. But “Asian” is no substitute for “Oriental” – it’s too prosaic, too flatly descriptive. But I don’t expect you and the PC police to pick up on anything that subtle, because you don’t give a fuck, you just use language as a club, and with the dumb indifference to the connotations and associations that may attach to it that don’t relate to your intent of using it to smash some perceived social ill. That is why I’m so happy to stick my thumb in your eyes. You’re a language thug. Fuck you. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oriental-round-2/268878/58 "2004-10-14T00:19:41Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > I’m unwilling to give up the word Oriental because it has so many GOOD associations for me. To me it conveys images of sampans gliding across moonlit rivers, their lamps reflected on the water while spilling bits of exotic music and happy chatter across the river, of intricately carved jade figurines whose presence or absence could spell certain doom to certain parties, of dusty silk road trails where banditti have to be paid off or fought off, of crowds of people wearing delicately patterned, brightly colored clothes going on mysterious errands in a bustling city. Many of the associations I have for the term are outdated, but that’s OK, it still is a good word for those associations. “That is so _Mulan._ I swear. You can almost _hear_ the mandolin in the background - _pung pung pung pung pung pung … pung … pung…_ ‘When I was a little girl, I grow up on the rice paddy… and we have no food because this is before Sally Struthers.’” - Margaret Cho ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oriental-round-2/268878/59 "2004-10-14T00:22:47Z")
Furthermore, if that’s what the word “oriental” means to you, why are you getting so upset about some people asking you not to use it to refer _to them_? After all, you’re not necessarily trying to associate _them_ with sampans, jade, banditti, etc. At least I hope not. People still use ‘Oriental’ to refer to that kind of concept, when they have to – as in ‘Orientalism’. When we say that ‘Asian’ is preferred to refer to people, we’re exclusively talking about _how to refer to people_ here. It was the _OP_ who asserted that these scary “PC police” didn’t want it used to refer to _things_, which has been directly contradicted multiple times. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oriental-round-2/268878/60 "2004-10-14T00:28:07Z")
> [@matt\_mcl](#): > > Furthermore, if that’s what the word “oriental” means to you, why are you getting so upset about some people asking you not to use it to refer _to them_? After all, you’re not necessarily trying to associate _them_ with sampans, jade, banditti, etc. At least I hope not. > > People still use ‘Oriental’ to refer to that kind of concept, when they have to – as in ‘Orientalism’. When we say that ‘Asian’ is preferred to refer to people, we’re exclusively talking about _how to refer to people_ here. It was the _OP_ who asserted that these scary “PC police” didn’t want it used to refer to _things_, which has been directly contradicted multiple times. I haven’t yet seen Mulan, but there’s no doubting that a lot of anime use imagery that goes along the lines I described. Is it Oriental imagery? I’d say so. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oriental-round-2/268878.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oriental-round-2/268878.md?page=4)