# Origin of "ARMS" in pub names ie "the Builders ARMS" **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 6, 2000, 10:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-arms-in-pub-names-ie-the-builders-arms/39926 "2000-11-06T10:56:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![APB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e8cbc/32.png) [@APB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/APB)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2013, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-arms-in-pub-names-ie-the-builders-arms/39926/61 "2013-03-12T12:19:58Z")
> [@RolandRB](#): > > Skinner’s Arms, 114 Judd Street, right near Kings Cross station. A very traditional pub. Green King ales last time I was there. Judd was the man who gave the money to have the alms houses built in this case. I don’t know if the alms houses still exist. OK, let’s consider this as a test case. The first problem is that Judd’s almshouses have never been anywhere near Judd Street. They were originally several miles away in Bishopsgate and are now in Palmer’s Green. Secondly, within a ten minutes walk from the Skinners’ Arms, you can find the Norfolk Arms, the Harrison Arms (now the Harrison), the Lucas Arms, the Northumberland Arms, the Lexington Arms (now the Lexington), the Carpenters’ Arms and the Calthorpe Arms. (There is also the Betjaman Arms in St Pancras Station, but that’s only been there for a year or two.) Within a mile there are also the Marlborough Arms, the College Arms, the Mortimer Arms, the Newton Arms, the Wilmington Arms, the Lyttelton Arms, another Carpenters’ Arms, another Northumberland Arms and two different Exmouth Arms. Within that same roughly-defined area, there were four sets of almshouses - the St George’s Bloomsbury almshouses, the St Giles-in-the-Fields almshouses (both of which have now merged), the St Pancras almshouses (now in Maitland Park) and, a bit further afield, the St Martin’s almshouses. In other words, none of the many pubs in that bit of London with ‘Arms’ in its name was named after a local almshouse. ---
**Author:** ![RolandRB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ccd318/32.png) [@RolandRB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RolandRB)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2013, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-arms-in-pub-names-ie-the-builders-arms/39926/62 "2013-03-12T17:48:56Z")
> [@naita](#): > > So you demand concrete written evidence that the obvious and accepted etymology is the correct one, while we’re supposed to accept your conjecture about alms = arms as valid because there isn’t written evidence against it? I am asking for the written evidence of the obvious and accepted - yes. That should be easy enough, surely? ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2013, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-arms-in-pub-names-ie-the-builders-arms/39926/63 "2013-03-12T18:02:16Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Even now, there are many erotic areas in England where they wouldn’t be pronounced alike. Those would be in the erogenous zones, no doubt. 😉 As for “Arms” and such in aprtment names, you see “Mansion” tacked onto the end of a lot of low-rent apartments in East and Southeast Asia. ---
**Author:** ![RolandRB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ccd318/32.png) [@RolandRB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RolandRB)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2013, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-arms-in-pub-names-ie-the-builders-arms/39926/64 "2013-03-12T18:16:33Z")
> [@SanVito](#): > > This is simply not true. There are countless pubs up and down the country that are still on the estate lands of existing aristocratic families, and carry their name and coats of arms. > > The Devonshire Arms cited above by UDS has been in existence since 1747, and is located on the Chatsworth Estate and listed as Leasehold by the Land Registry. Which means the land it is on is owned by the Duke of Devonshire. Presumably if he didn’t want a pub named after him, he would change it. OK, good point. ---
**Author:** ![RolandRB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ccd318/32.png) [@RolandRB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RolandRB)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2013, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-arms-in-pub-names-ie-the-builders-arms/39926/65 "2013-03-12T18:17:55Z")
> [@APB](#): > > OK, let’s consider this as a test case. > > The first problem is that Judd’s almshouses have never been anywhere near Judd Street. They were originally several miles away in Bishopsgate and are now in Palmer’s Green. > > Secondly, within a ten minutes walk from the Skinners’ Arms, you can find the Norfolk Arms, the Harrison Arms (now the Harrison), the Lucas Arms, the Northumberland Arms, the Lexington Arms (now the Lexington), the Carpenters’ Arms and the Calthorpe Arms. (There is also the Betjaman Arms in St Pancras Station, but that’s only been there for a year or two.) Within a mile there are also the Marlborough Arms, the College Arms, the Mortimer Arms, the Newton Arms, the Wilmington Arms, the Lyttelton Arms, another Carpenters’ Arms, another Northumberland Arms and two different Exmouth Arms. > > Within that same roughly-defined area, there were four sets of almshouses - the St George’s Bloomsbury almshouses, the St Giles-in-the-Fields almshouses (both of which have now merged), the St Pancras almshouses (now in Maitland Park) and, a bit further afield, the St Martin’s almshouses. > > In other words, none of the many pubs in that bit of London with ‘Arms’ in its name was named after a local almshouse. It’s hard to argue against that list. ---
**Author:** ![RolandRB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ccd318/32.png) [@RolandRB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RolandRB)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2013, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-arms-in-pub-names-ie-the-builders-arms/39926/66 "2013-03-12T18:24:39Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > And now you’re arguing from ignorance. There is actually a lot that linguists know about historical pronunciation in England. > > This is a Karl Pilkington-style argument. > > Gervais: Man and dinosaurs did not live at the same time. > > Pilkington: But why couldn’t that have happened? I mean that alms might have referred to the act of giving whether it be almshouses or instead a local hospital or a school for poor children and that the name came from a recognition of the charitable deed done. ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2013, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-arms-in-pub-names-ie-the-builders-arms/39926/67 "2013-03-12T18:50:21Z")
> [@RolandRB](#): > > I am asking for the written evidence of the obvious and accepted - yes. That should be easy enough, surely? And I offered you some. The Bingley Arms, named so in 1780 when purchased by Lord Bingley. You can of course then say “Yes, but what about earlier times?” or “Yes, but he was created Baron, not of an old house.” And someone can dig for earlier records, and then you can go “Yes, but some alehouses could have been named ‘something alms’ after an almshouse even if that one isn’t”. The fact is “Arms” meaning “Arms” is well established and matches other use of heraldy in naming alehouses and inns: [Pub names - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pub_names#Heraldry) There’s really ample proof that’s what it means. Your theory on the other hand only has your tiny sample of observations, completely lacking in in depth research and contradicted by common knowledge and APBs small survey. ---
**Author:** ![Filbert](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/filbert/32/3433_2.png) [@Filbert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Filbert)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2013, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-arms-in-pub-names-ie-the-builders-arms/39926/68 "2013-03-12T19:11:39Z")
> [@RolandRB](#): > > When I was very young growing up in the West Country then “alms” would have sounded like “arms” and from what I can tell, the West Country had the closest accent to Elizabethan English so perhaps this was true of the whole of middle and southern England at some stage. It might be worth doing an analysis for old pubs names ending in “arms” comparing north with south for the relative frequency. Bweh? There was never any such thing as an ‘Elizabethan Accent’. Accents in the Tudor era were likely even more diverse and strong than they are currently. Besides which, I live in the West Country, and I can count on the fingers of one foot the number of times I’ve heard a local say the word ‘alms’. ---
**Author:** ![RolandRB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ccd318/32.png) [@RolandRB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RolandRB)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2013, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-arms-in-pub-names-ie-the-builders-arms/39926/69 "2013-03-13T03:47:20Z")
OK, I’ve changed my mind. I have read that Richard II in 1393 decreed that ale houses must show a sign. Obviously then, a coat of arms or a depiction of heraldry would play a part in this. The local gentry would in some way be responsible for the keeping of this law and so they could hardly object to their own coat of arms beng used in the signage of some of these pubs. I didn’t think that very old pubs had names up until finding this but since they were forced to show signage since 1393 then they would have gotten names and it is likely that heraldry and coats of arms would have been used. ---
**Author:** ![APB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e8cbc/32.png) [@APB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/APB)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2013, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-arms-in-pub-names-ie-the-builders-arms/39926/70 "2013-03-13T13:49:20Z")
I’m probably going to regret this, but here goes anyway… > [@RolandRB](#): > > OK, I’ve changed my mind. I have read that Richard II in 1393 decreed that ale houses must show a sign. Obviously then, a coat of arms or a depiction of heraldry would play a part in this. The local gentry would in some way be responsible for the keeping of this law and so they could hardly object to their own coat of arms beng used in the signage of some of these pubs. I didn’t think that very old pubs had names up until finding this but since they were forced to show signage since 1393 then they would have gotten names and it is likely that heraldry and coats of arms would have been used. That 1393 law is bogus. It’s an example of confused information being endlessly repeated uncritically. Moreover, I think I can pinpoint the source of that confusion. The standard claim is that in 1393 Richard II passed a law stating that, ‘Whosoever shall brew ale in the town with intention of selling it must hang out a sign, otherwise he shall forfeit his ale.’ > **[Pub](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pub#Signs)** > > A pub (short for public house) is in several countries a drinking establishment licensed to serve alcoholic drinks for consumption on the premises. The term first appeared in England in the late 17th century, to differentiate private houses from those open to the public as alehouses, taverns and inns. Today, there is no strict definition, but the Campaign for Real Ale (CAMRA) states a pub has four characteristics: > The history of pubs can be traced to taverns in Roman Britain, and through Angl... But the 1393 Parliament passed no such statute. That is why [the 1911 _Encyclopedia Britannica_](http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Sign_-_Board) instead says that, ‘As early as the 14th century there was a law in England compelling them [publicans] to exhibit signs, for in 1393 the prosecution of a publican for not doing so is recorded.’ So it was not that the law dates from 1393 but that it can be inferred that a law to that effect must have been in existence by then. But even that is dubious. What is being alluded to is the case of a brewer, Florence North, who was prosecuted in 16 Richard II for failing to display a sign. The printed source for that is Daniel Lyson, [_The Environs of London_](http://archive.org/details/environsoflondon02lyso) (1792-4), ii, p. 74. However, that prosecution appears to have been in the manorial court of the dean and chapter of Westminster and so, strictly speaking, is only evidence for the existence of such a requirement within the limits of the Westminster Abbey manors. Moreover, the wording of this non-existant 1393 statute comes from elsewhere. It actually derives from an order by Parliament from 9 Henry VI. Information about this must have originally come from Jacob Larwood and John Camden Hotton’s 1908 book, [_The History of Signboards_](http://archive.org/details/historyofsignboa00larwiala), p. 10, because the original is in Latin and the English version always quoted is the translation given by Larwood and Hotton. Just as significantly, the sentence about this follows on immediately from the sentence in which they mention the 1393 case. It looks very much like some later writer will have conflated the two. But it gets worse. As Larwood and Hotton make clear, the order of 9 Henry VI applied only to Cambridge. So both these bits of information are certainly precious early fragments hinting at the use of signs by brewers. But they are not evidence of any general law in that period. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2013, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-arms-in-pub-names-ie-the-builders-arms/39926/71 "2013-03-14T01:17:43Z")
Commons sense suggests that there would be no need for a law compelling publicans to hang out signs; they would have a commercial interest in doing so. But, given that they were going to hang out signs, putting on them heraldic symbols with prestigious local assocations would be a pretty obvious thing to do. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2013, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-arms-in-pub-names-ie-the-builders-arms/39926/72 "2013-03-14T05:05:17Z")
1. It makes me feel good a book on the history of signboards has been written. 2. How often do you think the topics of this thread have been debated before in pubs? In any event, you now have some god stuff for your next trip. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-arms-in-pub-names-ie-the-builders-arms/39926.md?page=3)