# Origin of "art with no artist" trope \[time travel\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 19, 2019, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-art-with-no-artist-trope-time-travel/835770 "2019-06-19T22:51:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![markn\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@markn\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markn_1)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2019, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-art-with-no-artist-trope-time-travel/835770/1 "2019-06-19T22:51:18Z")
The discussion of the movie _Yesterday_ got me thinking about the not uncommon science fiction plot where someone goes back in time and “becomes” the creator of some work of art or literature by reproducing it from his memory of the work which exists in his time. Thus there’s a paradox where the work of art exists but no one created it. I’ve always had the vague idea that this concept was first used by Philip Klass (writing as William Tenn) in the story _The Discovery of Morniel Mathaway_, published in 1955. But I think the only reason that I have this idea is that this story was the earliest example that I’ve personally encountered. Are there any earlier ones? (And was the first instance of this trope REALLY created by that author, or was he a time traveller from the future, using his knowledge of later stories to … oh never mind.) ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2019, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-art-with-no-artist-trope-time-travel/835770/2 "2019-06-19T23:18:49Z")
Lester Del Rey’s ["…And It Comes Out Here](https://www.gutenberg.org/files/51046/51046-h/51046-h.htm)" from 1951 used the trope about an inventor. Excellent story, too. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2019, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-art-with-no-artist-trope-time-travel/835770/3 "2019-06-19T23:18:56Z")
I was going to say that the standard term for such an object or piece of information is a “djinn”, but that isn’t likely to be very helpful, since it turns out that that meaning of “djinn” was only coined in 1992 (long after many instances of it existed in fiction). ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2019, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-art-with-no-artist-trope-time-travel/835770/4 "2019-06-19T23:44:44Z")
Wikipedia informs us that the possibility of closed timelike curves was first discovered by Willem Jacob van Stockum in 1937, which definitely predates any of the 1950s sci-fi ideas cited in this thread. “Al-Jinn” AFAIK are those mysterious mythological angels/demons/spirits in the “Thousand and One Nights”; at least, I never heard that there was anything sci-fi about them, much less a similarly named standard term. There are some sci-fi experts on these boards who ought to know, though. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2019, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-art-with-no-artist-trope-time-travel/835770/5 "2019-06-20T00:07:53Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > Lester Del Rey’s ["…And It Comes Out Here](https://www.gutenberg.org/files/51046/51046-h/51046-h.htm)" from 1951 used the trope about an inventor. Excellent story, too. Another early case is “As Never Was” by P. Schulyer Miller about a knife that arrives from nowhere (1944) ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2019, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-art-with-no-artist-trope-time-travel/835770/6 "2019-06-20T00:10:37Z")
And Heinlein’s “By His Bootstraps” (1941) has the information in a notebook coming from nowhere (the notebook itself is replaced during the loop, but the information comes from no where). ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2019, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-art-with-no-artist-trope-time-travel/835770/7 "2019-06-20T12:21:36Z")
Aside: Should I add [time travel] to the subject line to make it clearer? Before I opened this thread, I thought it was going to be about the “the author is dead” school of art interpretation (a very different topic). ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2019, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-art-with-no-artist-trope-time-travel/835770/8 "2019-06-20T13:43:53Z")
In one of the later Hitchhiker books, Douglas Adams referred to something similar as “reverse engineering”. ---
**Author:** ![markn\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@markn\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markn_1)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2019, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-art-with-no-artist-trope-time-travel/835770/9 "2019-06-20T14:59:28Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Aside: Should I add [time travel] to the subject line to make it clearer? Before I opened this thread, I thought it was going to be about the “the author is dead” school of art interpretation (a very different topic). I have no objection to that.