# Origin of calling sloppy joe "hot tamale". **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 25, 2010, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-calling-sloppy-joe-hot-tamale/530414 "2010-02-25T17:56:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2018, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-calling-sloppy-joe-hot-tamale/530414/41 "2018-01-01T02:23:03Z")
Zombie or no, a Maid-Rite is hamburger cooked until _dry_ and served loose on a bun, with a pickle slice. Condementia is up to the consumer. Personally I unwrap, add a swirl of mustard, then rewrap for consumption. The key is to cook the hamburger until it is dry. No fat left bubbling at all. That’s what distinguishes a “loose meat” sandwich from a “bun taco” or “Bell Beefer.” The latter use taco meat that is much moister, but still not anywhere near as sauced as a Sloppy Joe. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2018, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-calling-sloppy-joe-hot-tamale/530414/42 "2018-01-01T16:27:39Z")
> [@samclem](#): > > Using my historic newspaper database, you can find Sheboygan school menus from the 1970s where some schools will have “sloppy joe” on the menu that week and others will have “tamale pie,” both being the same thing. Pretty indigenous to that general area. > > Around the 1930s, “tamale pie” recipes started to be offered around the country. The basic meat/tomato sauce/spices versions were about the same as what turned into the “sloppy joe” sandwich. The term “sloppy joe” for the meat mixture actually comes a bit later than “hot tamale.” Missed this the last time this thread came around. Are we sure these tamale pies are the same as sloppy joes? A tamale pie has a layer of corn meal on it, as far as I’ve ever seen it, and is eaten with a fork. ([Here’s a “tamale pie” recipe all the way from 1918](https://books.google.com/books?id=Z6Q9AAAAYAAJ&pg=PA203&dq=tamale+pie&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjCltC9lrfYAhWKqFQKHfafCP0Q6AEIKTAA#v=onepage&q=tamale%20pie&f=false), but that’s not from the Wisconsin area. I’m at my in-law’s house, and my MIL used to have a slew of old parish cookbooks from Wisconsin, but she seems to have gotten rid of them. ☹ I could swear “tamale pie” was the meat & cornbread thing in those, too. But they definitely had recipes for “hot tamales” that were sloppy joes.) ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2018, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-calling-sloppy-joe-hot-tamale/530414/43 "2018-01-01T16:33:26Z")
OK, [Here’s a University of Wisconsin](https://books.google.com/books?id=ezPOAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA46&dq=%22tamale+pie%22+wisconsin&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwim-PWHmLfYAhWB0J8KHUtoC_MQ6AEIOzAD#v=onepage&q=%22tamale%20pie%22%20wisconsin&f=false) cookbook from 1918, also have the cornmeal vesion of “tamale pie” in it. (Page 22). There it’s a casserole bakes with spiced meat sandwiched between two layers of cornmeal mush. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2018, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-calling-sloppy-joe-hot-tamale/530414/44 "2018-01-01T16:42:57Z")
> [@samclem](#): > > The earliest I could find a reference to “hot tamale sandwich” was 1937, in the _Sheboygan Press_, a story about a group from Mission House college going roller skating and eating “hot tamale sandwiches.” [Here’s one from 1902](https://books.google.com/books?id=9glBAQAAMAAJ&dq=%22hot%20tamale%22%20recipe&pg=PA337#v=onepage&q=%22hot%20tamale%22%20recipe&f=false) from a magazine called “Table Talk.” (See page 337.) But it is definitely _not_ talking about a sloppy joe. It’s quite literally a recipe of how to nixtamalize corn, make a real corn-husk tamale, and then make a sandwich out of it. ---
**Author:** ![wolfman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a8b319/32.png) [@wolfman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfman)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2018, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-calling-sloppy-joe-hot-tamale/530414/45 "2018-01-01T16:56:59Z")
This thread reminds me of my Mom and grandma, her mother-in-law. They went to visit in Ohio when grandma was recovering from something to help sort out getting her into a nursing home. Mom was helping out with the grocery shopping, and was utterly shocked on the list to see Grandma wanted mangos. It was completely out of her normal world of food, and didn’t seem to go with anything else on the list. But she dutifully drove around the city till she found mangos, and brought them back. I can only imagine the sitcom worthy scene as Grandma complained she didn’t want those damn things, she wanted [mangos](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_pepper) Although actually that was surprisingly exotic for Grandma as well. ---
**Author:** ![Patx2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/73ab20/32.png) [@Patx2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Patx2)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2018, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-calling-sloppy-joe-hot-tamale/530414/46 "2018-01-01T17:01:39Z")
I always considered sloppy joes and hot tamales two different things. I never heard of them being referred to as the same until I saw the OP. On another note, I saw Johnny LA post upthread about how he makes his enchiladas. I make mine the same way and now I really want some enchiladas! ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2018, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-calling-sloppy-joe-hot-tamale/530414/47 "2018-01-01T18:25:34Z")
> [@wolfman](#): > > This thread reminds me of my Mom and grandma, her mother-in-law. They went to visit in Ohio when grandma was recovering from something to help sort out getting her into a nursing home. Mom was helping out with the grocery shopping, and was utterly shocked on the list to see Grandma wanted mangos. It was completely out of her normal world of food, and didn’t seem to go with anything else on the list. > > But she dutifully drove around the city till she found mangos, and brought them back. I can only imagine the sitcom worthy scene as Grandma complained she didn’t want those damn things, she wanted [mangos](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_pepper) > > Although actually that was surprisingly exotic for Grandma as well. Oh, that’s a really cool one! I have never heard that terminology before. I was trying to guess what a “mango” was going to end up being. I would never have guessed green pepper (or bell pepper in general.) Looks like it seems to be concentrated in parts of Indiana, Kentucky, and Ohio. And [here is the supposed etymology](http://www.word-detective.com/2009/04/mango/). > [@](#): > > The first mangoes imported into the American colonies were from the East Indies, and, since this was long before either high-speed transport or refrigeration, they arrived not as fresh fruit, but in pickled form. This fact turns out to be the key to the mango-pepper mystery. At some point, early on, there was a popular misunderstanding of the word “mango” in America, and people began to use “mango” as a general synonym for “pickled dish,” no matter what the dish was made from. Thus, in 1699, we find references in a cookbook to “a mango of cucumbers” and “mango of walnuts.” Pretty soon almost anything that could be pickled was called a “mango.” Apples, peaches, apricots, plums, even bunches of grapes, once pickled, became “mangoes,” usually in the form “mango of peach,” etc. “Mango” even became a verb in the early 18th century meaning “to pickle.” > > One of the most popular “mangoes” was created by stuffing a bell pepper with spiced cabbage and pickling the whole shebang. Apparently, this concoction was so popular for so long that the green pepper itself, even unpickled, became known as a “mango,” and this is the usage that persists in the American Midwest today. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2018, 8:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-calling-sloppy-joe-hot-tamale/530414/48 "2018-01-02T08:10:22Z")
> [@fiddlesticks](#): > > My mother’s “Chicken enchiladas” also had very little resemblance to real enchiladas. It was basically a casserole dish with flat tortillas between layers of cheese and chicken and canned chile peppers. At least it was “Mexican” in style. 🙂 > [@Alan\_Smithee](#): > > Enchiladas are often made that way in New Mexico. I’m not sure if the recipe predates Anglo settlement of the area, but some of the families who make them that way almost certainly do. > [@BigT](#): > > Here in Arkansas we call that chicken enchilada casserole. That’s what I call it, too. Of course, my Betty Crocker cookbook calls the recipe “chicken enchiladas.” But they want me to roll the filling into the tortillas individually, which skill I’ve never been able to master, so I do the layering thing, and change the name to chicken enchilada casserole, which I came up with all by myself; so I’m taking credit for inventing it. Them. The dish _and_ the name. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2018, 8:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-calling-sloppy-joe-hot-tamale/530414/49 "2018-01-02T08:31:57Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > Thanks for that well-researched input, **samclem**. > > Maybe I’ll fix hot tamales for dinner tomorrow! That’ll be a blast from my past. I think I’ll buy Hot Tamales tomorrow and eat a few while I cook dinner (where I come from, “Hot Tamales” are a cinnamon-flavored jellybean-esque confection, shaped like medicine capsules, but about an inch long. They come in a little cardboard box and look like a similar candy, Mike and Ike’s, which are fruit-flavored and come in multiple colors. Hot Tamales are uniformly red. Also, we just call the corn husk-wrapped items “tamales.” If we need a descriptive word to specify what kind they are, we just say what the filling is; e.g., beef tamales, chicken tamales, pork carnitas tamales, etc). ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2018, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-calling-sloppy-joe-hot-tamale/530414/50 "2018-01-02T14:59:31Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > I think I’ll buy Hot Tamales tomorrow and eat a few while I cook dinner (where I come from, “Hot Tamales” are a cinnamon-flavored jellybean-esque confection, shaped like medicine capsules, but about an inch long. They come in a little cardboard box and look like a similar candy, Mike and Ike’s, which are fruit-flavored and come in multiple colors. Hot Tamales are uniformly red. Also, we just call the corn husk-wrapped items “tamales.” If we need a descriptive word to specify what kind they are, we just say what the filling is; e.g., beef tamales, chicken tamales, pork carnitas tamales, etc). We get the candy kind around Chicago as well. Or at least we did – I haven’t exactly looked for them in many years. I just assume they’re still around. And, to me, for whatever reason, when I think “hot tamale,” I think more of the American/Mississippi tamales that are usually served/cooked in/with a lot of sauce. [Something like this](http://catholicfoodie.com/new-orleans-style-hot-tamales) or [this](https://www.pinterest.com/pin/100697741645371384/). Sometimes wrapped in paper instead of husks or leaves; sometimes made with cornmeal instead of masa. That may just be me, though. For the Mexican ones, it’s always just “tamale” with possibly the filling descriptor. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2018, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-calling-sloppy-joe-hot-tamale/530414/51 "2018-01-02T16:13:10Z")
Re: Chicken enchiladas. > [@kaylasdad99](#): > > But they want me to roll the filling into the tortillas individually, which skill I’ve never been able to master… Heat up the enchilada sauce. Dip a corn tortilla completely into the hot sauce for a few seconds. This will make it pliable. Put the filling onto the tortilla. Roll it up. Put the tortilla seam side down into the casserole dish. DO WHILE TORTILLAS NE 0 END-DO ---
**Author:** ![curtolaf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@curtolaf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curtolaf)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2018, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-calling-sloppy-joe-hot-tamale/530414/52 "2018-05-27T04:13:27Z")
In the 1930s or 40s Mirro Aluminum Company of Manitowoc, WI published a cookbook with the “hot tamale” recipe you’re talking about. I would guess that any mother who owned Mirro cookware also owned the recipe book. I grew up in Manitowoc and never heard the phrase “sloppy joe” until I was in my mid teens and I visited my brother in Waterford, WI in the late 1960s. ---
**Author:** ![curtolaf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@curtolaf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curtolaf)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2018, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-calling-sloppy-joe-hot-tamale/530414/53 "2018-05-27T04:29:23Z")
In the 1930s or 40s Mirro Aluminum Company of Manitowoc, WI published a cookbook with the “hot tamale” recipe you’re talking about. I would guess that any mother who owned Mirro cookware also owned the recipe book. I grew up in Manitowoc and ate my first Hot Tamale at age 6 at my birthday party. I never heard the phrase “sloppy joe” until I was in my mid teens and I visited my brother in Waterford, WI in the Mid 1970s. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2018, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-calling-sloppy-joe-hot-tamale/530414/54 "2018-05-27T04:48:24Z")
**curtolaf** , thanks for that addition! We had a LOT of Mirro cookware in our Sheboygan County household back in the 60’s, and doubtless our hot tamales were made using some of them. Here’s a Mirro Hot Tamale recipe I found online from the 1961: [https://archive.lib.msu.edu/DMC/sliker/msuspcsbs\_mirr\_aluminumgo23/msuspcsbs\_mirr\_aluminumgo23.pdf](https://archive.lib.msu.edu/DMC/sliker/msuspcsbs_mirr_aluminumgo23/msuspcsbs_mirr_aluminumgo23.pdf) HOT TAMALES QUANTITY INGREDIENTS 4 QT. 6 QT. Butter or Margarine 2 Tbsp. 14 cup Ground Beef 1 lb. 2 lbs. Onion, chopped 1 Tbsp. 2 Tbsp. Green Pepper, chopped 1 Tbsp. 2 Tbsp. Tomato Soup 1 10V2 2 10V2 oz. can oz. ca Worcestershire sauce 1/2 tsp. 1 tsp. Catsup 3 Tbsp. 6 Tbsp. Salt 1/2 tsp. 1 tsp. Pepper Dash 14 tsp. Dry Mustard 1 tsp. 2 tsp. Water 2 Tbsp. Yields: 1/4 cup 1 pint 1 quart DIRECTIONS 1. Brown ground beef, onion and green pepper in butter in MIRRO-MATIC . 2. A dd remainder of ingredients. 3. Cover, set control and cook for 8 minutes after control jiggles. 4. Reduce pressure instantly . 5. Serve on split buns. Note: If mixture is not thick enough, cook it uncovered to evaporate And welcome to the Straight Dope! ---
**Author:** ![NDP](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ndp/32/55_2.png) [@NDP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NDP)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2018, 7:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-calling-sloppy-joe-hot-tamale/530414/55 "2018-05-27T07:34:48Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > **curtolaf** , thanks for that addition! We had a LOT of Mirro cookware in our Sheboygan County household back in the 60’s, and doubtless our hot tamales were made using some of them. > > Here’s a Mirro Hot Tamale recipe I found online from the 1961: [https://archive.lib.msu.edu/DMC/sliker/msuspcsbs\_mirr\_aluminumgo23/msuspcsbs\_mirr\_aluminumgo23.pdf](https://archive.lib.msu.edu/DMC/sliker/msuspcsbs_mirr_aluminumgo23/msuspcsbs_mirr_aluminumgo23.pdf) That recipe now seems pretty mild. I would’ve thought it would have a few drops of Tabasco or at least a little garlic to heat it up. Except for the green peppers, there’s no difference between that recipe and that for a sloppy joe. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-calling-sloppy-joe-hot-tamale/530414.md?page=2)