# Origin of "Clockwise" **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 10, 2005, 9:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-clockwise/311837 "2005-07-10T09:48:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2005, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-clockwise/311837/21 "2005-07-11T20:15:37Z")
> [@](#): > > If that’s wrong, then what about a compass? I don’t know when either were invented, but I imagine it’s only a Google-search away… the start with 0° at the top and progress clockwise, err, compasswise, around the dial. Compasses are old, but compasses marked in degrees are fairly recent. During the Age of Exploration (when clocks were already commonplace, at least on land), compasses were marked with compass points, like “due south” and “northeast by north”, which don’t have any particular association with widdershins or deosil. Consider Shakespeare, for example: Clocks were so commonplace by his time that he took them for granted and put one in ancient Rome, but Hamlet was mad north-northwest, not 337.5 degrees. And I don’t buy that it’s directly from motion of the heavens, either. Yes, if you look south, you’ll see heavenly bodies moving in a deosil sense. But the only place you’ll see a complete circle of a path is in the northern sky around the pole star (assuming that you’re observing in the northern hemisphere, of course), and there, the motion around the circles will be widdershins. I think that the simplest explanation by far is that one type of time-measuring device was designed to be similar, to the extent that it could be, to the previously common type of time measuring devices. And while there are different designs of sundials which would go in different directions, the most common type had the dial horizontal, and the shadow moving in the same direction as the hands on a modern clock. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2005, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-clockwise/311837/22 "2005-07-11T20:40:55Z")
I don’t own a copy of [Why Do Clocks Run Clockwise and Other Imponderables](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0898458358/ref=pd_sxp_f/102-9333229-2313701?v=glance&s=books) by David Feldman, but I would think the answer to this question would be in there. Anyone got a copy? ---
**Author:** ![bonzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/45deac/32.png) [@bonzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bonzer)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2005, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-clockwise/311837/23 "2005-07-11T20:46:06Z")
> [@Snowboarder Bo](#): > > Anyone got a copy? Heresy, heresy. Burn the heretic. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2005, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-clockwise/311837/24 "2005-07-11T21:50:40Z")
Hey, Cecil can’t cover _everything_, can he? He prolly has to leave some scraps for the little doggies now and then, or risk some scene like from one of Romero’s zombie flicks. “Braaaaaaiinssss…” ---
**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-clockwise/311837/25 "2005-07-12T02:36:41Z")
I don’t suppose the hand-spinning of a toy top when done by the right hand has anything to do with it? ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-clockwise/311837/26 "2005-07-12T02:55:09Z")
From the book, “Why do clocks run clockwise?” by David Feldman: > [@](#): > > In baseball, horseracing, and most forms of skating, we are accustomed to seeing counterclockwise movement. Is there any particular reason why clocks run “clockwise”? > Heny Fried, one of the foremost horologists in the United States, gives a simple explanation for this Imponderable. Before the advent of clocks, we used sundials. In the northen hemisphere, the shadows rotated in the direction we now call “clockwise”. The clock hands were built to mimic the natural movements of the sun. If clocks had been invented in the southern hemisphere, Fried speculates, “clockwise” would be the opposite direction. ---
**Author:** ![Waterman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b2d939/32.png) [@Waterman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waterman)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-clockwise/311837/27 "2005-07-12T04:53:21Z")
> [@x-ray vision](#): > > From the book, “Why do clocks run clockwise?” by David Feldman: Well as **Kimstu** points out it’s all a matter of your reference point so I can’t entirely accept the books premise without further consideration. I still opt for the left-to-right direction of reading. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-clockwise/311837/28 "2005-07-12T05:27:18Z")
“Why do clocks run clockwise? If a clock ran counterclockwise, technically, by definition, it would still be running clockwise. Likewise, no matter how hot or cold a room is, it is still room temperature.” Steven Wright (from the Internet, no verification of authorship) ---
**Author:** ![Zeldar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b77776/32.png) [@Zeldar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeldar)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 10:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-clockwise/311837/29 "2005-07-12T10:49:47Z")
This “left to right” explanation only applies to the portion of a clock’s face from 9:00 to 3:00. From 3:00 to 9:00 you’re reading right to left. That’s one of the main reason’s to refer to “clockwise” when dealing with circular motion. mini-hijack: one of the most difficult challenges I ever heard of is the one that has an Earthling, in a radio communication, explaining to an alien civilization the concept of “left and right” in such a way as to guarantee orientation of some piece of apparatus. The deeper one gets into the issue, the more one must accept that such a concept is entirely arbitrary. Either that, or I never heard a convincing reference system explained. end-of-mini-hijack. ---
**Author:** ![rjk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ed655f/32.png) [@rjk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjk)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-clockwise/311837/30 "2005-07-12T12:29:49Z")
> [@Zeldar](#): > > … > mini-hijack: one of the most difficult challenges I ever heard of is the one that has an Earthling, in a radio communication, explaining to an alien civilization the concept of “left and right” in such a way as to guarantee orientation of some piece of apparatus. The deeper one gets into the issue, the more one must accept that such a concept is entirely arbitrary. Either that, or I never heard a convincing reference system explained. end-of-mini-hijack. Asimov has a collection of his science essays called _The Left Hand of the Electron_ (1972), in which he notes reports of some bias in electron spin, which he speculates might have caused organic molecules to have biased handedness, thus making the twist in DNA go the way it does. If so, left and right aren’t arbitrary. I’m not sure that convinces me, but maybe.[/hijack] ---
**Author:** ![Waterman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b2d939/32.png) [@Waterman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waterman)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-clockwise/311837/31 "2005-07-12T15:31:35Z")
To repeat an earlier inquiry, would any of the early work in Astronomy (specifically the period of say the 12th through 14th centuries) hold any further clues or hints regarding this question? More specifically, are planetary and stellar motions in the Northern Hemisphere sky principally in the “clockwise” direction or does it depend on time of year, etc? ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-clockwise/311837/32 "2005-07-12T15:58:23Z")
> [@bonzer](#): > > Heresy, heresy. Burn the heretic. [If](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a1_247a.html) [Cecil](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a2_153.html) [can](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a3_124b.html) [cite](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a4_124.html) David Feldman, surely the Teeming Millions can. By the way, how cool would it be to tell people you’re a “horologist”? ---
**Author:** ![Bytegeist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9dc877/32.png) [@Bytegeist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bytegeist)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-clockwise/311837/33 "2005-07-12T16:30:23Z")
> [@Waterman](#): > > More specifically, are planetary and stellar motions in the Northern Hemisphere sky principally in the “clockwise” direction or does it depend on time of year, etc? The nightly motion of celestial bodies, including the moon, the stars and the planets, is from east to west. In the northern hemisphere, that makes things appear to move in a _counter-clockwise_ circle, if they’re close enough to the north celestial pole not to be obscured by the horizon. (Like the Big Dipper constellation, for example. Or better yet the Little Dipper, which is even closer.) If you subtract away the Earth’s rotation then you can find some bodies — the outer planets in particular — that move in _retrograde_ motion at least some of the time. It is a slow phenomenon however, taking place over days and weeks, and hardly seems like it could be the inspiration for picking a clock’s direction of motion. ---
**Author:** ![rfgdxm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c0e974/32.png) [@rfgdxm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rfgdxm)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-clockwise/311837/34 "2005-07-12T16:38:06Z")
> [@Bytegeist](#): > > If you subtract away the Earth’s rotation then you can find some bodies — the outer planets in particular — that move in _retrograde_ motion at least some of the time. It is a slow phenomenon however, taking place over days and weeks, and hardly seems like it could be the inspiration for picking a clock’s direction of motion. SUNDIALS! What better way if you are designing a clock to have the hands move in the same direction the shadow on a sundial does in the Northern Hemisphere? People were already used to measuring time with sundials. ---
**Author:** ![Bytegeist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9dc877/32.png) [@Bytegeist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bytegeist)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-clockwise/311837/35 "2005-07-12T17:46:01Z")
> [@rfgdxm](#): > > SUNDIALS! What better way if you are designing a clock to have the hands move in the same direction the shadow on a sundial does in the Northern Hemisphere? People were already used to measuring time with sundials. Yes, _I agree_. But I was addressing the other poster’s question about whether the choice of clock motion could have come from the motion of celestial bodies in the night sky. ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-clockwise/311837/36 "2005-07-12T18:21:17Z")
> [@Zeldar](#): > > This “left to right” explanation only applies to the portion of a clock’s face from 9:00 to 3:00. From 3:00 to 9:00 you’re reading right to left. That’s one of the main reason’s to refer to “clockwise” when dealing with circular motion. That’s true, but since we also read top to bottom, the order on the top of the clock will dominate. Note that if you ask someone to turn a circular object “left” or “right” they will turn it counterclockwise and clockwise, respectively. ---
**Author:** ![Waterman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b2d939/32.png) [@Waterman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waterman)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-clockwise/311837/37 "2005-07-12T18:44:28Z")
There seems to be disagreement on the movement even of sundials or again maybe it has to do with the orientation of the sundial. But if the source isn’t the sundial, or not how we read (the left-to-right thingy), **then what?** This from an older consideration of the same question. [Link to 1996 discussion on clockwise](http://www.fourfold.org/RoverWeb/lro/Year-1996/961118.html#8) _… Great theory - except that in the northern hemisphere the shadow moves counterclockwise, of course, from the left side to the lower side to the right side. The sun moves clockwise. Maybe clocks were invented in the southern hemisphere?_ Clearly, this would be heresy would it not, since it does not fit into the Eurocentric theory of the universe. ---
**Author:** ![rfgdxm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c0e974/32.png) [@rfgdxm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rfgdxm)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-clockwise/311837/38 "2005-07-12T19:01:55Z")
> [@Waterman](#): > > There seems to be disagreement on the movement even of sundials or again maybe it has to do with the orientation of the sundial. > > But if the source isn’t the sundial, or not how we read (the left-to-right thingy), **then what?** > > This from an older consideration of the same question. > > [Link to 1996 discussion on clockwise](http://www.fourfold.org/RoverWeb/lro/Year-1996/961118.html#8) > > _… Great theory - except that in the northern hemisphere the shadow moves counterclockwise, of course, from the left side to the lower side to the > right side. The sun moves clockwise. Maybe clocks were invented in the > southern hemisphere?_ > > Clearly, this would be heresy would it not, since it does not fit into the Eurocentric theory of the universe. Ever see a sundial in the Northern hemisphere? If you look down at the sundial, the **shadow** of the sun on it moves clockwise. At the equinoxes, the sun will cast a shadow pointing in the direction of 3 o’clock. At noon it casts a shadow at the 6 o’clock position. At sunset the shadow of the sun is roughly at the 9 o’clock position. [http://www.du.edu/~jcalvert/astro/crandial.jpg](http://www.du.edu/~jcalvert/astro/crandial.jpg) That is a sundial in the Northern hemisphere. The gmomon (that pole sticking out in the center) points at Polaris, the Northern Star. ---
**Author:** ![Waterman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b2d939/32.png) [@Waterman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waterman)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2005, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-clockwise/311837/39 "2005-07-13T00:31:59Z")
**rfgdxm** - no I haven’t had a chance to see a sundial in the Northern Hemisphere. But the following link goes into an explanation of how the location of a sundial in the Northern Hemisphere effects its use and results, in addition to tying together many of the topics previously discussed such as widdershins: [Link to Clockwise Discussion](http://www.bhi.co.uk/hints/clckwse.htm) This reference provides further discussion refuting some claims that Jewish time is kept counterclockwise though the clock on the outside of the Prague Jewish community center does rotate counterclockwise: [Link for Jewish clocks](http://www.faqs.org/faqs/judaism/FAQ/11-Miscellaneous/section-12.html) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-clockwise/311837.md?page=1)