# Origin of English, as on a Cue-Ball **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 19, 2005, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-english-as-on-a-cue-ball/304642 "2005-05-19T21:36:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Fear\_the\_Turtle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_the_turtle/32/2926_2.png) [@Fear\_the\_Turtle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_the_Turtle)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2005, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-english-as-on-a-cue-ball/304642/1 "2005-05-19T21:36:06Z")
While conversing with some British friends I discovered they were unfamiliar with the phrase “to put english on the cue ball” (in billiards/pool). Anyone know the origin of where us Yanks got that term? And what would our brethren across the pond refer to this as? (my friends over here weren’t all that familiar with pool/billiards/snooker/whatever) Thanks in advance ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2005, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-english-as-on-a-cue-ball/304642/2 "2005-05-19T22:11:05Z")
The Archives are your friend: [What’s the origin of “English,” the kind you put on a ball?](http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/menglish.html) ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2005, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-english-as-on-a-cue-ball/304642/3 "2005-05-19T22:12:49Z")
It’s borrowed terminology from the French, who originated the game. It’s originally a pun on _anglé_ (angle). You put _Anglais_ on the ball. The pun is lost when it’s translated into English. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2005, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-english-as-on-a-cue-ball/304642/4 "2005-05-19T22:18:23Z")
“Body English?” I think SDStaff Ian was being a bit lazy. Any evidence that the term “Body English” predates “English” as a billiards term, from the middle of the 19th century? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_the\_Turtle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_the_turtle/32/2926_2.png) [@Fear\_the\_Turtle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_the_Turtle)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2005, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-english-as-on-a-cue-ball/304642/5 "2005-05-19T22:42:24Z")
Thanks. Forgot to check the archives but did search General Questions for “English” (guess who many hits I got!) I too, would have thought that “body english” came from “english”, and not vice versa. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2005, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-english-as-on-a-cue-ball/304642/6 "2005-05-19T23:13:57Z")
> [@Larry Mudd](#): > > It’s borrowed terminology from the French, who originated the game. > > It’s originally a pun on _anglé_ (angle). > > You put _Anglais_ on the ball. The pun is lost when it’s translated into English. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2005, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-english-as-on-a-cue-ball/304642/7 "2005-05-19T23:14:07Z")
[Webster’s 1913 edition](http://machaut.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/WEBSTER.sh?WORD=english) makes it clear that as late as that, this sense of the the word was associated exclusively with billiards. > [@](#): > > (Billiards) A twist or spinning motion given to a ball in striking it that influences the direction it will take after touching a cushion or another ball. Since, in billiards, english is put on the ball with precisely the same body movements used in a non-englished shot, and the only difference where the ball is struck, it’s silly to say that this term is short for “body english.” I should be very interested so see if the phrase “body english” can be cited before the 1940s or so. Anybody got a proper OED? ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2005, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-english-as-on-a-cue-ball/304642/8 "2005-05-19T23:21:33Z")
> [@samclem](#): > > Cite? So far, all I’ve been able to find is [this](http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=English). > [@](#): > > “spin imparted to a ball” (as in billiards), 1860, from Fr. anglé “angled,” which is similar to Anglais “English.” Of course, this is less than perfectly satisfactory as a cite. When I get home I will check my “hard” dictionaries – I have a few 19th century and early 20th century ones that may be more helpful. What’s clear, though, is that SDStaff Ian’s assertion that “the word’s origins are more evident when you connect it with other sports,” approaches the problem from the wrong, um, angle. “English,” as connected with other sports, is borrowed from billiards. “Body english” doesn’t make sense in connection with billiards. ---
**Author:** ![Colophon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@Colophon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colophon)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2005, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-english-as-on-a-cue-ball/304642/9 "2005-05-19T23:53:19Z")
As for what we Brits call it… well, does “english” refer to side spin or top/back spin, or both? We call backspin “screw” as in “He played that shot with a lot of screw” or even “deep screw”, or “You’ll need to screw back”. Topspin is just topspin. Sidespin is referred to as “side”, as in “He played that shot with left-hand side” for example. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-english-as-on-a-cue-ball/304642/10 "2005-05-20T00:02:28Z")
I offer further support for the argument that “english” is a borrowed French term by pointing out that most extreme englishing in the game is the [_massé_](http://www.bartleby.com/61/85/M0138500.html) shot, and that this term also goes back at least to the 19th century, unlike the phrase “body English.” The name of [the game itself](http://www.bartleby.com/61/2/B0250200.html) has a French etymology, of course. > [@Colophon](#): > > …does “english” refer to side spin or top/back spin, or both? That’s a controversial point. According to some people, “english” only applies to side spin. Others say that follow and draw are types of english. ---
**Author:** ![Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/earl_snake-hips_tucker/32/3269_2.png) [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earl_Snake-Hips_Tucker)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-english-as-on-a-cue-ball/304642/11 "2005-05-20T04:36:39Z")
FWIW, [the Word Detective](http://www.word-detective.com/070698.html#english) agrees with “body English” predating plain ol’ “English.” ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-english-as-on-a-cue-ball/304642/12 "2005-05-20T06:43:20Z")
I think it would be worth a little more if they gave us something besides a blind assertion. As much as I hate using [dictionary.com](http://dictionary.com) as a cite, I’m [going to anyway](http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=body%20english). > [@](#): > > **Body English** > > Movements of the body that express a person’s feelings, as in _His body English tells us just how tired he is_. This expression originated about 1900 in such sports as bowling and ice hockey, where a player tries to influence the path of a ball or puck by moving his body in a particular direction. (It was based on the earlier use of _English_ to mean “spin imparted to a ball.”) > > Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of Idioms by Christine Ammer. (My emphasis.) Again, the “english” given to a billiard ball has nothing to do with contortions of the body, it comes from an eccentric strike. How can it be “derived from […] the extra gestures, physical effort and ‘oomph’ we know as ‘body english,’” when putting english on a billiard ball involves none of these things? To put left english on the ball, you aim right-of-center, and use the same gestures, physical effort, and, uh, what the hell is ‘oomph’ if it’s not physical effort, anyway? Sexual attractiveness? That _can’t_ be right. Where was I? Oh yeah. The english you put on a billiard ball comes from careful aim. If you know how to apply english, you can do it the same way in a good pool sim as you can in a pub, even though the body is left out of the sim. It might make intuitive sense to a pitcher or bowler that “english” is short for “body english,” but until I see something resembling a cite that it was _ever_ called that first, I’m not buying. That being said, I am surprised to hear that “body english” was being used at the beginning of the twentieth century. I expected that it was more recent than that. ---
**Author:** ![TellMeI\_mNotCrazy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tellmei_mnotcrazy/32/3419_2.png) [@TellMeI\_mNotCrazy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TellMeI_mNotCrazy)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-english-as-on-a-cue-ball/304642/13 "2005-05-20T11:18:24Z")
That definintion of body English is not the same as what I understand the pool (or bowling, or whatever) definition to be. If I say I’m using body English when I’m playing pool, I mean I’m (usually unintentionally) moving my body in a way - after I’ve hit the ball - that reflects the way I want the ball to behave. I find myself standing on tip toe to encourage it to roll just a little farther; I tend to lean in the direction I want the ball to go, etc. Body English has nothing to do with actually affecting the path of the ball, it’s just an unintentional physical indication of what I expect or hope to happen. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-english-as-on-a-cue-ball/304642/14 "2005-05-20T18:16:39Z")
> [@TellMeI'mNotCrazy](#): > > That definintion of body English is not the same as what I understand the pool (or bowling, or whatever) definition to be. The first part, you mean? Of course. Different context, but it is used that way often enough, although “body language” is obviously preferable. Examples of this use of “body english” [here](http://community.webshots.com/photo/95951422/49171561LoJjwu) and [here](http://www.voice.neu.edu/951207/language.html). (Personally, I think it’s a confusing and ‘wrong’ use, but whaddya gonna do? Cussed descriptivists.) The second part of the American Heritage definition pretty much agrees with the usual sense of “body english.” “Standing on tip toe to encourage it to roll just a little farther,” is the same as “trying to influence the path of a ball or puck by moving [the] body in a particular direction.” What’s perfectly clear is that neither of these senses of “body english” have anything to do with the original sense of putting “english” on a billiard ball. As Ian wrote: > [@](#): > > While “body English” is what we do after the ball is in motion, the term “English” is reserved to describe motion actually put on the ball by its spin. What do the English call “English”? “Side.” As in “Don’t hit it in the center, hit in on the …” Sometimes the English make sense, even if “English” doesn’t. “English” on a cue-ball doesn’t make sense if it refers to body english. It makes perfect sense if “english” is equated with the closely-related word “angle.” The aim of putting english on the ball is to affect the angle of its rebound. ---
**Author:** ![3cushion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/3/da6949/32.png) [@3cushion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/3cushion)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2009, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-english-as-on-a-cue-ball/304642/15 "2009-02-23T04:19:40Z")
[quote=“Larry\_Mudd, post:12, topic:304642”] To put left english on the ball, you aim right-of-center To put left English on a cue ball one would hit the ball on the _left_ side of center. “English”, in America" is generally used to indicate side spin and, as mentioned earlier, “top” or “follow” and “draw” are used to indicate above center and below center hits respectively. When I was learning to play about 50 years ago the terms “running” and “reverse” or “hold-up” were used to indicate English used to either enhance or widen the natural rebound angle of the cue ball off a cushion (running) or limit same (reverse). If the natural path of the ball is to the left, then left English would be “running” (because it _runs_ with the ball) and right would be “hold-up” (because it \*holds up \* the cue ball). Reverse was never used to denote draw. Now the terms “inside” and “outside” are in common usage and refer to the angle made by the line of the shot and the line of the cushion or the path of the object ball. Striking the cue ball on the side inside that angle is “inside” and outside that angle is “outside”, regardless of the direction of the shot. ---
**Author:** ![Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eyebrows_0f_doom/32/3119_2.png) [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eyebrows_0f_Doom)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2009, 7:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-english-as-on-a-cue-ball/304642/16 "2009-02-23T07:16:46Z")
American here, and I’ve never heard that term before. ---
**Author:** ![HomeBrewer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8797f3/32.png) [@HomeBrewer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HomeBrewer)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2009, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-english-as-on-a-cue-ball/304642/17 "2009-02-23T11:12:29Z")
[quote=“3cushion, post:15, topic:304642”] > [@Larry\_Mudd](#): > > To put left english on the ball, you aim right-of-center > > To put left English on a cue ball one would hit the ball on the _left_ side of center. “English”, in America" is generally used to indicate side spin and, as mentioned earlier, “top” or “follow” and “draw” are used to indicate above center and below center hits respectively. When I was learning to play about 50 years ago the terms “running” and “reverse” or “hold-up” were used to indicate English used to either enhance or widen the natural rebound angle of the cue ball off a cushion (running) or limit same (reverse). If the natural path of the ball is to the left, then left English would be “running” (because it _runs_ with the ball) and right would be “hold-up” (because it \*holds up \* the cue ball). Reverse was never used to denote draw. Now the terms “inside” and “outside” are in common usage and refer to the angle made by the line of the shot and the line of the cushion or the path of the object ball. Striking the cue ball on the side inside that angle is “inside” and outside that angle is “outside”, regardless of the direction of the shot. Right on. Pool players in the US say ‘english’ for left or right spin, but almost never say ‘top english’ or ‘bottom english’. To us those are ‘follow’ and ‘draw’. And our ‘inside’ or ‘hold up’ english in the UK and Australia is called ‘check side’. And let’s not get started on what they consider a push shot to be. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2009, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-english-as-on-a-cue-ball/304642/18 "2009-02-23T14:23:05Z")
OED’s unfortunately not too helpful here. > [@](#): > > 1. [Perhaps so named because English players introduced the technique to the U.S. (but see quot. 1959).] U.S. Sport (orig. Billiards). Spin imparted to a ball by striking it on one side rather than centrally so as to affect its course, esp. after an impact or bounce; = SIDE n.1 14d. Also in extended use. Freq. in to put (the) English on and variants (cf. ENGLISH v. 4). > > 1869 ‘M. TWAIN’ Innocents Abroad xii. 116 You would infallibly put the ‘English’ on the wrong side of the ball. 1877 Chicago Daily Tribune 30 Sept. 8/1 He saw Richard Grant White..miss one shot badly through putting on too much side. ‘Too much English on that,’ said the spectator. 1898 R. HUGHES Lakerim Athletic Club xv. 242 Eaton would slash the ball with a stiffened wrist, an elbow swing, and a quick, hard jump into the air at the same time, to put the ‘English’ on. 1915 Manitoba Free Press Evening Bull. 31 Dec. 6/4 The average billiard player goes to the extreme in the use of ‘English’. 1959 Sunday Times 5 Apr. 4/5 The billiard term ‘putting on the english’, which Atticus states is current parlance in American bowling circles. The story goes that an enterprising gentleman from these shores travelled to the United States during the latter part of the last century and impressed the Americans with a demonstration of the effect of ‘side’ on pool or billiard balls. His name was English. 1966 H. NIELSEN After Midnight (1967) iii. 53 When Simon tried to close the door..he encountered difficulties. The officer lent a hand. ‘You have to put a little English on it,’ he explained. ‘There’s a defect in the catch.’ 2007 Edmonton (Alberta) Jrnl. (Nexis) 15 June D3 Creamer, a very sharp player, taught James how to handle the cue stick and how to put English on the ball. Cites back to Mark Twain in 1869. The 1959 cite is suggestive that “Body English” comes from “English,” but only just barely so, since it involves a speculation and the telling of a story that sounds apocryphal. Nothing about the origin. -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![aeschliman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3e96dc/32.png) [@aeschliman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aeschliman)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2011, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-english-as-on-a-cue-ball/304642/19 "2011-09-19T04:06:20Z")
I believe FRYLOCK is on the right track with one of the explanations of the term ‘ENGLISH" as it applies to billiards. The story I have heard for the last 50 years is that prior to leather tips being used, spin on the cue ball was nearly impossible. In the 1850"s or so, an english gentleman visited the United States and put on several pool demonstrations. He had equipped the end of his cue with a leather pad and was able to impart spinning motions to the cue ball. This, not having been seen before, registered in the minds of many billiard addicts. Whether or not his name was English or just that he was English, the term of spinning the cue ball was forever associated with "ENGLISH’. I cannot attest that this is entirely true, but I have heard this many times in my life. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2011, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-english-as-on-a-cue-ball/304642/20 "2011-09-19T04:21:12Z")
Haha I remember I used to put -FrL- at the end of all my posts. /fRl/ [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-english-as-on-a-cue-ball/304642.md?page=2)