origin of "Europe", "Caucasian

[Sailboat]

All this talk about people from the Caucasus being “the most beautiful” brings to mind that Kim Kardashian is (or claims to be) Armenian.

[Acsenray]

@Sailboat

All this talk about people from the Caucasus being “the most beautiful” brings to mind that Kim Kardashian is (or claims to be) Armenian.

“Claims to be”? Is there any reason to doubt it? Her father was Robert Kardashian, whose family background is reasonably well known.

[John_Mace]

@Sailboat

All this talk about people from the Caucasus being “the most beautiful” brings to mind that Kim Kardashian is (or claims to be) Armenian.

Yeah, with a name like that, who could possibly imagine she’d be Armenian? :dubious:

[Alessan]

@njtt

My daughter, who goes to high school with a lot of Armenian (well, Armenian-American) kids, tells me that they vehemently deny that Armenians are Caucasians.

As Armenia is slap bang in the Caucasus, my first thought was that what they really meant to deny was that they are Europeans, but it seems that, on certain quite widely accepted conceptions of the boundaries of Europe, Armenia is (just about) in Europe, too.

My best guess is that what they really mean to say is that they are not Anglos.

No, I think it’s something else.

Based on what I’ve encountered among immigrants, residents of the former Soviet Union consider the term “Caucasian” a pejorative. Josef Stalin aside, for some reason the inhabitants of the Caucuses region were not held in very high regard in the U.S.S.R. I learned long ago never to call an Armenian or a Georgian a Caucasian to their face.

[njtt]

@Alessan

No, I think it’s something else.

Based on what I’ve encountered among immigrants, residents of the former Soviet Union consider the term “Caucasian” a pejorative. Josef Stalin aside, for some reason the inhabitants of the Caucuses region were not held in very high regard in the U.S.S.R. I learned long ago never to call an Armenian or a Georgian a Caucasian to their face.

They are very open and proud of their Armenian heritage, though. Why would they be proud of being Armenian but ashamed of being from the Caucasus, which is where Armenia is? If Soviet society was broadly prejudiced against people from the Caucasus, surely it would have been similarly prejudiced against Armenians as such, since they are from the Caucasus? Although I can believe that Armenian-American high school kids may be ignorant of the geographical location of their ethnic homeland (and the name of the mountains there), surely this would not have been the case for Armenian adults in the Soviet Union.

I have heard that many Russians tend to be prejudiced against Chechens, who are also from the Caucasus region. Are you saying this extends or extended to the people’s of the Caucasus more generally, or was it that Armenians, Georgians, etc., were anxious not to be lumped in with Chechens?

[Lemur866]

I think it’s more like British people denying that they are European. Those riff-raff over there? They’re European. We’re our own thing.

[John_Mace]

Yes, it’s hard for me to imagine that Armenians don’t want to be considered part of Europe. They just don’t want to be associated with the other countries in the Caucus region. I think it is generally considered to be part of Europe, but I suppose it wouldn’t be hard to argue it’s really part of Asia.

[Sailboat]

@Acsenray

“Claims to be”? Is there any reason to doubt it? Her father was Robert Kardashian, whose family background is reasonably well known.

I just caveated myself to avoid being asked to dig up genealogical citations. No need to be snarky.

[Lemur866]

As for the contention that Europe was named after the mythological figure “Europa”, it is surely the other way around. The area was called Europe by the Greeks, and so somebody invented a story to explain the name.

[Leo_Bloom]

Hell, let’s vote:

Men from the Caucasus:
http://www.google.com/search?q=men+from+the+caucasus&hl=en&safe=off&client=safari&tbo=d&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=PiHTULPgLaLi0QHtv4HQAQ&ved=0CAkQ_AUoAQ&biw=1024&bih=644

Women from the Caucasus:
http://www.google.com/search?q=women+from+the+caucasus&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&client=safari&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=hiHTUNO_GMXp0QGm1ICYBQ&biw=1024&bih=644&sei=iiHTUNTWJfTq0QHL84HABg

Men from the world -Caucasus
http://www.google.com/search?um=1&hl=en&safe=off&client=safari&tbo=d&biw=1024&bih=644&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=men+from+the+world+-caucasus&oq=men+from+the+world+-caucasus&gs_l=img.12...23715.27142.0.30169.10.10.0.0.0.0.176.785.5j3.8.0...0.0...1ac.1.TBGHuLFQMc4

Women from the world -Caucasus:
http://www.google.com/search?q=women+from+the+world+-caucasus&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&client=safari&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=xiHTUI6MIMeK0QHSyoEI&biw=1024&bih=644&sei=yiHTUICAPKWR0QHcuYDYAQ

[Exapno_Mapcase]

@Lemur866

As for the contention that Europe was named after the mythological figure “Europa”, it is surely the other way around. The area was called Europe by the Greeks, and so somebody invented a story to explain the name.

Europa predates the Greeks.

from L. Europa "Europe," from Gk. Europe, of uncertain origin; as a geographic name, first the Homeric hymn to Apollo (522 B.C.E. or earlier):

    "Telphusa, here I am minded to make a glorious temple, an oracle for men, and hither they will always bring perfect hecatombs, both those who live in rich Peloponnesus and those of Europe and all the wave-washed isles, coming to seek oracles." 

Often explained as "broad face," from eurys "wide" (see aneurysm) + ops "face." But also traditionally linked with Europa, Phoenician princess in Greek mythology. Klein (citing Heinrich Lewy) suggests a possible Semitic origin in Akkad. erebu "to go down, set" (in reference to the sun) which would parallel orient. Another suggestion along those lines is Phoenician 'ereb "evening," hence "west."

[Leo_Bloom]

@Sailboat

I just caveated myself to avoid being asked to dig up genealogical citations. No need to be snarky.

Well you should have looked it up. Everybody else in the world knows everything about Kim Kardashian. [I honestly have no idea what she is, except I gather she’s a sexy woman.]

[md2000]

@njtt

They are very open and proud of their Armenian heritage, though. Why would they be proud of being Armenian but ashamed of being from the Caucasus, which is where Armenia is? If Soviet society was broadly prejudiced against people from the Caucasus, surely it would have been similarly prejudiced against Armenians as such, since they are from the Caucasus? Although I can believe that Armenian-American high school kids may be ignorant of the geographical location of their ethnic homeland (and the name of the mountains there), surely this would not have been the case for Armenian adults in the Soviet Union.

I have heard that many Russians tend to be prejudiced against Chechens, who are also from the Caucasus region. Are you saying this extends or extended to the people’s of the Caucasus more generally, or was it that Armenians, Georgians, etc., were anxious not to be lumped in with Chechens?

I think you’ve probably nailed it. My guess is that to Russians, Caucasians means the dozens of ethnic/tribal peoples whose desire for independence is causing all sorts of trouble. Also, those groups tend to be more backward, (Impoverished) and their liberation movements have muslim extremist backing - as opposed to the old Christian civilization of Armenia.

@Leo_Bloom

Well you should have looked it up. Everybody else in the world knows everything about Kim Kardashian. [I honestly have no idea what she is, except I gather she’s a sexy woman.]

YMMV.

[Floater]

@Leo_Bloom

Everybody else in the world knows everything about Kim Kardashian.

We do? I have no idea who she is except that her name pops up every now and then.

[Lemur866]

Kim Kardashian

You’re welcome.