# Origin of expression "Ye Gods!" (American WW2 generation interjection) **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 11, 2009, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-expression-ye-gods-american-ww2-generation-interjection/506015 "2009-08-11T01:40:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2009, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-expression-ye-gods-american-ww2-generation-interjection/506015/1 "2009-08-11T01:40:45Z")
(And a poll, I guess!) I noticed, in a few Herman Wouk novels, that the characters often use the interjection _Ye gods!_ as an interjection. My .mother, from the same generation, used to say it until about 1980. Judging from _The Caine Mutiny_, (in addition to Mother), it seemed to be more current among the middle and upper classes than among the lower echelons; for example, the college educated ship’s officers would say it, but not the sailors. Willie’s girlfriend says it, IIRC, but she too has had at least a partial college education though her background is humble. So I’m here to ask: (1) what was the origin of this expression? How did it become current there and then? Was there some edition of Ovid’s _Metamorphosis_ that virtually every college student had to study back then? And (2), have you heard the expression used by people you know? If so, what is their age and background? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2009, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-expression-ye-gods-american-ww2-generation-interjection/506015/2 "2009-08-11T01:45:19Z")
It’s older than World War 2. It has the same source as “egad”…it’s a euphemism to avoid blasphemy. ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2009, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-expression-ye-gods-american-ww2-generation-interjection/506015/3 "2009-08-11T01:59:41Z")
Mind your phraseology, young lady! ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2009, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-expression-ye-gods-american-ww2-generation-interjection/506015/4 "2009-08-11T02:04:48Z")
Michael Quinion’s [commentary on the phrase](http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-yeg1.htm). (May not be satisfactory.) ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2009, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-expression-ye-gods-american-ww2-generation-interjection/506015/5 "2009-08-11T02:14:41Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > It’s older than World War 2. It has the same source as “egad”…it’s a euphemism to avoid blasphemy. But wouldn’t the invocation of multiple gods have been, itself, blasphemous? ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2009, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-expression-ye-gods-american-ww2-generation-interjection/506015/6 "2009-08-11T02:29:01Z")
> [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](#): > > But wouldn’t the invocation of multiple gods have been, itself, blasphemous? Depends on _how much_ older than World War 2 the expression is… 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2009, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-expression-ye-gods-american-ww2-generation-interjection/506015/7 "2009-08-11T02:34:35Z")
The OED says the usage comes from Shakespeare, though the first cite of “Ye Gods” is from Boswell (and looking at the cites, I don’t quite understand why they think it comes from Shakespeare at all). > [@OED](#): > > e. Phrases. ye gods (and little fishes)! used to express mock-heroic indignation. a feast, sight, etc. (fit) for the gods: said of something delightful or amazing. > > 1601 SHAKES. Jul. C. II. i. 173 Let’s carue him, as a Dish fit for the Gods. 1761 BOSWELL Let. (1857) 17 Dec. 383 It is Captain Andrew! it is! it is! Ye gods, he seizes! he opens! he reads! 1807 C. WILMOT Let. 15 May Russ. Jrnls. (1934) II. 243 Oh! ye Gods! How you are to be envied & every Mortal alive. Note that in Medieval times, “Ye” was pronounced “The.” It wasn’t even a separate word: when movable type came to England, it was missing some letter, notably the thorn (“Þ,” which had the “th” sound). Early printers tried to use “y” (which looks a bit like it) as a substitute and thus you did have “ye” showing up for a time. Later, people saw the “ye” and assumed it was pronounced the way we would pronounce it now. ---
**Author:** ![TWDuke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e495f1/32.png) [@TWDuke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TWDuke)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2009, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-expression-ye-gods-american-ww2-generation-interjection/506015/8 "2009-08-11T02:39:22Z")
> [@Spectre of Pithecanthropus](#): > > But wouldn’t the invocation of multiple gods have been, itself, blasphemous? Certainly the assumption would have been that the speaker as well as the listener/reader did not actually believe in multiple gods,\* so no blasphemy would be possible, whereas carelessly invoking the name of the “real” deity would arguably be breaking one of the Ten Commandments (“You shall not make wrongful use of the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not acquit anyone who misuses his name.”) Shakespeare is said to have used _Jove_ in place of _God_ in some of his plays to get around a blasphemy law. A 19th-century _ye gods_: “Would he not far rather lay him down lengthwise along the line of the equator; yea, ye gods! go down to the fiery pit itself, in order to keep out this frost?” (Melville, _Moby-Dick_, 1851) - For Jove’s sake, let us not get into a debate about the trinity. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2009, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-expression-ye-gods-american-ww2-generation-interjection/506015/9 "2009-08-11T02:43:41Z")
> [@](#): > > 1601 SHAKES. Jul. C. II. i. 173 Let’s carue him, as a Dish fit for the Gods. I’m missing something. Why does the OED consider this a precursor of “ye gods”? Surely “the Gods” was itself a common enough pairing with no connection to the mock heroic. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2009, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-expression-ye-gods-american-ww2-generation-interjection/506015/10 "2009-08-11T02:47:38Z")
My dad, who was a couple of years too young for WWII, used to say ‘Ye gods, and little fishes!’ EDIT: [First hit on a google search of that phrase](http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-yeg1.htm): > [@](#): > > It’s an elaboration of the older ye gods!, an exclamation that dates back at least to the seventeenth century in Britain, a way of calling on higher powers in a mock-heroic way without actually bringing the wrath of the Church down on you for blasphemy. > > However, ye gods and little fishes is characteristically American, an example of the embellishment and ornamentation that was common in the inflated language of the nineteenth century. I’ve found several examples from the 1850s, which suggest that by then it was well known. A good one appears in Early Indiana Trials and Sketches by Oliver Hampton Smith, of 1858: “Mr. Tyler’s friends in their great devotion to their great chief, have compared him to Napoleon. ‘Ye gods and little fishes!’ John Tyler and Napoleon Bonaparte!”. > > But why the little fishes? Sorry, I’ve no idea, except there may be a disguised Biblical reference in there somewhere, perhaps to the story of the feeding of the five thousand in St Matthew’s Gospel. My suspicion is that it was a catchphrase from a play or popular song that is now lost to us. ---
**Author:** ![TWDuke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e495f1/32.png) [@TWDuke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TWDuke)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2009, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-expression-ye-gods-american-ww2-generation-interjection/506015/11 "2009-08-11T02:48:33Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > I’m missing something. Why does the OED consider this a precursor of “ye gods”? Surely “the Gods” was itself a common enough pairing with no connection to the mock heroic. Some word-type-scholar guys seem to have an almost-perverse desire to attribute everything in modern English to Shakespeare, but I think **RealityChuck** expressed the same doubt you have. By the way, I found a reference to the blasphemy statute I referred to above ([Online 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica](http://encyclopedia.jrank.org/articles/pages/789/Renaissance-the.html)), which also explains such odd-sounding oaths as “gad,” “zounds” and “'sblood.” ETA: The venerable OED seems to be conflating ye/the (“a Dish fit for the Gods”) with ye/you (“Oh! ye Gods! How you are to be envied”). ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2009, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-expression-ye-gods-american-ww2-generation-interjection/506015/12 "2009-08-11T15:27:42Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > My dad, who was a couple of years too young for WWII, used to say ‘Ye gods, and little fishes!’ > > EDIT: [First hit on a google search of that phrase](http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-yeg1.htm): Maybe that’s why tomndebb already gave it in post #4? ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2009, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-expression-ye-gods-american-ww2-generation-interjection/506015/13 "2009-08-11T15:40:38Z")
> [@TWDuke](#): > > The venerable OED seems to be conflating ye/the (“a Dish fit for the Gods”) with ye/you (“Oh! ye Gods! How you are to be envied”). It does seem extraordinary, because the editors of OED should know better. In this case, “Ye gods” just means “You gods”. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2009, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-expression-ye-gods-american-ww2-generation-interjection/506015/14 "2009-08-11T18:01:01Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > Note that in Medieval times, “Ye” was pronounced “The.” It wasn’t even a separate word: when movable type came to England, it was missing some letter, notably the thorn (“Þ,” which had the “th” sound). Early printers tried to use “y” (which looks a bit like it) as a substitute and thus you did have “ye” showing up for a time. Later, people saw the “ye” and assumed it was pronounced the way we would pronounce it now. It should be mentioned that this only hold true for things like “Ye Olde Shoppe” or “Ye Gods,” phrases like “Hear ye, hear ye” have a different origin and are pronounced how they’re spelled (AFAIK at least). ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_R.Mortiss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim_r.mortiss/32/142_2.png) [@Tim\_R.Mortiss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_R.Mortiss)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2009, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-expression-ye-gods-american-ww2-generation-interjection/506015/15 "2009-08-11T18:53:50Z")
> [@Slithy\_Tove](#): > > Mind your phraseology, young lady! That’s where I first heard it (assuming you are referencing “The Music Man”), and I’ve been using it ever since as a sort of general purpose anachronistic exclamation…TRM (I think it’s a swell thing to say) ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2009, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-expression-ye-gods-american-ww2-generation-interjection/506015/16 "2009-08-11T18:56:55Z")
What’s the symbology behind the phrase? ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2009, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-expression-ye-gods-american-ww2-generation-interjection/506015/17 "2009-08-11T19:33:29Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > I’m missing something. Why does the OED consider this a precursor of “ye gods”? Surely “the Gods” was itself a common enough pairing with no connection to the mock heroic. I’m confused about that myself, hence my comment when I quoted. If you squint at the definition, it’s possible to see tracks of logic (it’s about a feast, and Ye Gods was about a feast), but I find that very tenuous. Maybe the OED just liked Shakespeare. 🙂 > [@Jragon](#): > > It should be mentioned that this only hold true for things like “Ye Olde Shoppe” or “Ye Gods,” phrases like “Hear ye, hear ye” have a different origin and are pronounced how they’re spelled (AFAIK at least). Correct. “Ye” was a legitimate variation of “You” that was actually part of the language of the time (and I believe it’s still used in some dialects). “Ye” for “The” is a misunderstanding. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2009, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-expression-ye-gods-american-ww2-generation-interjection/506015/18 "2009-08-11T19:49:14Z")
_Ye gods_ is no more blasphemous than _by Jove_, and both expressions (and many more such) were natural to generations who knew the Greek and Roman classics as well as they knew the Bible. As has been mentioned the expression goes back centuries in English. ---
**Author:** ![Kizarvexius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/da6949/32.png) [@Kizarvexius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kizarvexius)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2009, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-expression-ye-gods-american-ww2-generation-interjection/506015/19 "2009-08-11T20:13:16Z")
> [@Slithy\_Tove](#): > > Mind your phraseology, young lady! It’s Capulets like you make blood in the marketplace! ---
**Author:** ![Apollyon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/apollyon/32/4238_2.png) [@Apollyon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apollyon)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2009, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-expression-ye-gods-american-ww2-generation-interjection/506015/20 "2009-08-12T01:54:57Z")
> [@TWDuke](#): > > By the way, I found a reference to the blasphemy statute I referred to above ([Online 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica](http://encyclopedia.jrank.org/articles/pages/789/Renaissance-the.html)), which also explains such odd-sounding oaths as “gad,” “zounds” and “'sblood.” And that good antipodean exclamation: “Strewth!” 🙂 [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-expression-ye-gods-american-ww2-generation-interjection/506015.md?page=2)