# Origin of "Half past a monkey's ass"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 3, 2003, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-half-past-a-monkeys-ass/216769 "2003-12-03T20:20:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![smootman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4af34b/32.png) [@smootman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smootman)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2003, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-half-past-a-monkeys-ass/216769/1 "2003-12-03T20:20:53Z")
SO, all you scholars, where did “Half past a monkey’s ass, quarter to his balls” come from? Is there more to the rhyme? ---
**Author:** ![gonzoron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a6a055/32.png) [@gonzoron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzoron)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2003, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-half-past-a-monkeys-ass/216769/2 "2003-12-03T20:57:26Z")
I’ve always heard it as: “Half past the camel’s ass A quarter past his balls lift up the rear leg and see niagra falls.” But that was in 6th grade. ---
**Author:** ![Bromley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4da419/32.png) [@Bromley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bromley)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2003, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-half-past-a-monkeys-ass/216769/3 "2003-12-03T21:10:59Z")
Best I can do is a usenet metalworking [post](http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=782u2o%24ij5%242%40news.interlog.com). > [@](#): > > A ‘monkey’s ass’ was a device used on British warships to dispense warmed cannon balls. Warming the balls was necessary prior to firing them to get predictable characteristics in the barrel. Since the ‘monkey’s ass’ was a tubular device it would cast a shadow on the ship’s deck. Balls waiting to be warmed were kept nearby in the proverbial ‘brass monkey’, the whole works were manned by a ‘powder monkey’. When the shadow ran long along the deck, almost reaching the cannonball storage it was late in the day, and hence the expression. I’d take that with a pinch of salt though until someonecan confirm that cannon balls would have been warmed. I couldn’t find any corroboration at the [RN slang site](http://www.royal-navy.mod.uk/static/pages/4755.html), although as they say POSH is Port Out Starboard Home, that’s probably a good thing 🙂 . ---
**Author:** ![Bromley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4da419/32.png) [@Bromley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bromley)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2003, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-half-past-a-monkeys-ass/216769/4 "2003-12-03T21:14:07Z")
Arrgh. Posted too soon. [Snopes](http://www.snopes2.com/language/stories/brass.htm) refutes the brass monkey element of the Usenet explanation, so the whole house of cards comes tumbling down. ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2003, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-half-past-a-monkeys-ass/216769/5 "2003-12-03T23:23:01Z")
Hmm. Warming cannon balls to be inserted into a (typically already hot , if it had been fired) cannon, to sit on top of cloth flammable wadding and gunpowder. Considering how much effort they devoted to swabbing the cannon barrel with water to cool it so it would not cause premature ignition of the powder, I really have to doubt that aspect of it. Besides, what would warming do to improve “predictable characteristics?” Arguably if the ball expands it would fit more snugly in the barrel, but if it fit too snugly, that wouldn’t help matters at all. Making sure the balls were case well and kept as smoothly-surfaced as possible would probably be the best expedient available to ensure no eccentricity was introduced – but cannons were hardly pinpoint-accurate sharpshooting weapons at the best of times. ---
**Author:** ![Jmechler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5a626/32.png) [@Jmechler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jmechler)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2021, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-half-past-a-monkeys-ass/216769/6 "2021-04-15T12:30:28Z")
Heated cannon shot was used. And well documented. > **[Heated shot | History](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heated_shot#History)** > > The idea of setting fire to enemy warships can be traced back to the ancient world, where fire arrows and incendiary materials such as Greek fire were used. In 54 BC, heated clay balls were used by the Britons to attack Roman encampments, while in medieval siege warfare, catapults were used to hurl fire balls and other incendiaries into besieged castles and settlements. > 1.The first successful use of heated shot fired from cannon was by King Stephen Bathory of Poland in 1579 against the Russians ... ---
**Author:** ![WOOKINPANUBv.2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wookinpanubv.2/32/3260_2.png) [@WOOKINPANUBv.2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WOOKINPANUBv.2)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2021, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-half-past-a-monkeys-ass/216769/7 "2021-04-15T13:00:37Z")
I haven’t thought of that expression in decades. Until reading this, I was still under the childhood belief that it was “_according_ to his balls”. What a maroon. ---
**Author:** ![blondebear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blondebear/32/1022_2.png) [@blondebear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blondebear)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2021, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-half-past-a-monkeys-ass/216769/8 "2021-04-15T13:01:28Z")
Related question: what is the origin of the British slang “Couldn’t give a monkey’s…”? Is it a variant of “couldn’t give a rats ass?” ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2021, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-half-past-a-monkeys-ass/216769/9 "2021-04-15T13:34:59Z")
It’s possible those were the words among your peers. These oral traditions have a way of being mangled over time, especially when it involves school kids who are especially known for mishearing or creating their own twists, especially when it’s nonsense, and they end up with myriad variations (see, for example, the many variations of what little boys are made of: “X and snails and puppy dog tails.” I’ve found at least ten variations for X, with “snips,” “snakes,” “frogs,” and “slugs” being the four most popular.) Over here it was “half past monkey’s ass, quarter to his balls” with no “a” between “past” and “monkey.” ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2021, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-half-past-a-monkeys-ass/216769/10 "2021-04-15T15:57:21Z")
> what is the origin of the British slang “Couldn’t give a monkey’s…”? [NSFW or at last for the prudish] Something tells me it was originally “a monkey’s toss” - quite why that was considered so very worthless, I have no idea. Nor whether there’s any relation to the not uncommon usage “brass monkey’s”, for cold weather (meaning “cold enough to freeze the balls off a brass monkey”). ---
**Author:** ![Treppenwitz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/treppenwitz/32/3445_2.png) [@Treppenwitz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Treppenwitz)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2021, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-half-past-a-monkeys-ass/216769/11 "2021-04-15T18:15:04Z")
> [@PatrickLondon](#): > > Something tells me it was originally “a monkey’s toss” - quite why that was considered so very worthless, I have no idea. Eric Partridge gives two versions. This ⬆ is one; the other is "A monkey’s fuck. Monkeys must have had a bad rep when these were coined, I guess? j ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2021, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-half-past-a-monkeys-ass/216769/12 "2021-04-15T18:35:12Z")
> [@Treppenwitz](#): > > Monkeys must have had a bad rep when these were coined, I guess? YouTube has documented the fact that monkeys are capable of being massive assholes. I think they still have a bad rep. It’s no surprise that idioms like that would pop up. ---
**Author:** ![P-man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/p-man/32/3606_2.png) [@P-man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/P-man)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2021, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-half-past-a-monkeys-ass/216769/13 "2021-04-15T20:10:30Z")
Were brass images of monkeys ever a thing? Maybe the person who coined the phrase knew about the cannon balls, but was thinking about an actual monkey. In the words of the Tootsie Pop commercial, “the world may never know.” ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2021, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-half-past-a-monkeys-ass/216769/14 "2021-04-15T20:38:42Z")
A brass monkey is a classic cocktail, here’s a 1971 advertisement for a bottled version of it. [![](http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-yGZbyzDov-k/Uq72oBbfegI/AAAAAAAAL34/SXKe2MzySgQ/s1600/Hublein_BrassMonkey1a.jpg) ](http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-yGZbyzDov-k/Uq72oBbfegI/AAAAAAAAL34/SXKe2MzySgQ/s1600/Hublein_BrassMonkey1a.jpg) By the way, there is an actual brass monkey in the ad. ---
**Author:** ![Staggerlee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/staggerlee/32/3134_2.png) [@Staggerlee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Staggerlee)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2021, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-half-past-a-monkeys-ass/216769/15 "2021-04-16T06:50:31Z")
> [@PatrickLondon](#): > > [NSFW or at last for the prudish] Something tells me it was originally “a monkey’s toss” - quite why that was considered so very worthless, I have no idea. Nor whether there’s any relation to the not uncommon usage “brass monkey’s”, for cold weather (meaning “cold enough to freeze the balls off a brass monkey”). I’ve also heard it as “a tinker’s cuss”, which at least has some sense of worthlessness. ---
**Author:** ![QMatic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/aeb1de/32.png) [@QMatic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QMatic)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2021, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-half-past-a-monkeys-ass/216769/16 "2021-04-16T07:22:35Z")
FWIW any rhyme based on “ass” is unlikely to be of British origin as we say “arse”, unless it’s about donkeys. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2021, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-half-past-a-monkeys-ass/216769/17 "2021-04-16T10:57:51Z")
The cannonball warmer explanation is very obviously fabricated. Ships are movable objects. The situation “When the shadow ran long along the deck, almost reaching the cannonball storage it was late in the day” would depend on the orientation of the ship with respect to the sun. ---
**Author:** ![ElDuderino222](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b77776/32.png) [@ElDuderino222](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElDuderino222)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2025, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-half-past-a-monkeys-ass/216769/18 "2025-12-28T12:37:32Z")
Am I crazy or is everybody wrong on the Internet? I always thought the expression was “half past Mickey’s ass and a quarter to his balls” … like on a Mickey Mouse watch. That makes so much more sense than anything anybody else has ever said that I’ve seen. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2025, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-half-past-a-monkeys-ass/216769/19 "2025-12-28T14:44:59Z")
That would make very slightly more sense, but I’ve only heard it as “monkey.” Green’s Dictionary of Slang dates the monkey phrase to 1996, which while it could be right for a printed source, my 80s childhood definitely attests it to at least that decade orally. Plus it didn’t ’t mean “half past midnight” but was just a jocular answer to “what time is it?” in the way “time to get a watch” would be. > **[half past a monkey’s ass, phr. — Green’s Dictionary of Slang](https://greensdictofslang.com/entry/ienio7q)** Oh, I just noted that entry omits the “quarter to his balls” part. ---
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2025, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-half-past-a-monkeys-ass/216769/20 "2025-12-28T18:35:56Z")
What time is it? Looks at wrist “freckle past a hair” Of course it loses it’s impact now, because everyone looks at their phone. And Monkeys ain’t mentioned. Ass or no. It’s a monkey puzzle, for sure. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-half-past-a-monkeys-ass/216769.md?page=2)