# Origin of HIV **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [August 29, 2011, 10:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-hiv/594483 "2011-08-29T10:40:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Craig234](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Craig234](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Craig234)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2011, 10:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-hiv/594483/1 "2011-08-29T10:40:05Z")
There’s a column on ‘was AIDS man-made’ that addresses a couple topics. There are more. I ran across a book, ‘Dr. Mary’s Monkey’, that purports a large theory about the polio vaccine being found to cause cancer, and a scientific project to try to find a prevention, involving a particle accelerator and a lot of monkeys contaminating each other between a virus called ‘SV40’, and SIV. Believe it or not, the story involved the murder of a 75 year old cancer researcher - and figures in the JFK assassination. Here’s a link to an Amazon comment by the author laying out some of the info. It would be nice to have some sane commentary about the whole story. Cecil’s piece refers to HIV as a ‘naturally occurring’ evolution of SIV, but there was quite a bit of stuff going on in the 1960 era with ‘biological war research’. How sure are we that the virus ‘naturally’ evolved from SIV? Has science been able to find any evidence proving that? [http://www.amazon.com/review/R1DGP6AF7M22CR/ref=cm\_cr\_pr\_cmt?ie=UTF8&ASIN=0977795306&nodeID=&tag=&linkCode=#wasThisHelpful](http://www.amazon.com/review/R1DGP6AF7M22CR/ref=cm_cr_pr_cmt?ie=UTF8&ASIN=0977795306&nodeID=&tag=&linkCode=#wasThisHelpful) ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2011, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-hiv/594483/2 "2011-08-29T13:28:31Z")
> [@Craig234](#): > > I ran across a book, ‘Dr. Mary’s Monkey’, that purports a large theory about the polio vaccine being found to cause cancer, and a scientific project to try to find a prevention, involving a particle accelerator and a lot of monkeys contaminating each other between a virus called ‘SV40’, and SIV. Sound like a swell plot for one of those Mike Myers pseudo-James Bond movies. > [@](#): > > Believe it or not Not. > [@](#): > > It would be nice to have some sane commentary about the whole story. Can’t address the JFK assassination stuff :dubious:, but bogus claims about the SV40 virus have been circulating among antivaxers and conspiracy theorists for a long time. In the early days of the polio vaccine, there was contamination of some lots by SV40, a simian virus which is typically asymptomatic in its hosts. There’s been considerable research on the possibility of health effects in humans who received SV40-containing polio vaccine, particularly in relation to cancer risk, but [no increased cancer has been demonstrated](http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/factsheet/Risk/sv40) in those who got the vaccine. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2011, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-hiv/594483/3 "2011-08-29T13:46:07Z")
> [@Craig234](#): > > How sure are we that the virus ‘naturally’ evolved from SIV? Very > [@Craig234](#): > > Has science been able to find any evidence proving that? Science doesn’t prove things, but the evidence is extremely strong and no alternative theory has stood up to examination. ---
**Author:** ![StusBlues](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@StusBlues](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StusBlues)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2011, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-hiv/594483/4 "2011-08-29T14:01:45Z")
I believe [this](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/941/is-aids-a-manmade-disease)is the column you’re talking about. Welcome to the Dope, **Craig**. If you decide to stay in our community, please include a url to the column in question in your post. It’s nice. ---
**Author:** ![Craig234](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Craig234](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Craig234)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2011, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-hiv/594483/5 "2011-08-29T14:03:31Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > bogus claims about the SV40 virus have been circulating among antivaxers and conspiracy theorists for a long time. It doesn’t sound like you read the link; it sounded like he is debunking a set of claims about SV40 being linked, while making new claims about the history. > [@](#): > > In the early days of the polio vaccine, there was contamination of some lots by SV40, a simian virus which is typically asymptomatic in its hosts. There’s been considerable research on the possibility of health effects in humans who received SV40-containing polio vaccine, particularly in relation to cancer risk, but [no increased cancer has been demonstrated](http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/factsheet/Risk/sv40) in those who got the vaccine. Good to hear. It’s amazing what people come up with about the JFK assassination. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2011, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-hiv/594483/6 "2011-08-29T14:04:52Z")
Welcome? The dude’s been here since 2003! Yet he still believes stuff like this. Clearly our mission statement needs some tweaking. ---
**Author:** ![Craig234](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Craig234](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Craig234)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2011, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-hiv/594483/7 "2011-08-29T14:05:59Z")
> [@StusBlues](#): > > I believe [this](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/941/is-aids-a-manmade-disease)is the column you’re talking about. > > Welcome to the Dope, **Craig**. If you decide to stay in our community, please include a url to the column in question in your post. It’s nice. Yes, it is. No problem. Didn’t think to include it as it doesn’t have any info relevant to these new questions - it’s just noting what has been covered previously. ---
**Author:** ![StusBlues](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@StusBlues](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StusBlues)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2011, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-hiv/594483/8 "2011-08-29T14:09:20Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Welcome? The dude’s been here since 2003! Sorry–I saw that he only had four posts (at the time) but didn’t look at the join date. Ignorance fought. ---
**Author:** ![Craig234](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Craig234](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Craig234)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2011, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-hiv/594483/9 "2011-08-29T14:22:13Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Welcome? The dude’s been here since 2003! > > Yet he still believes stuff like this. Clearly our mission statement needs some tweaking. Nowhere did I say I ‘believe’ this stuff. The only question I directly asked was how much is known about whether HIV evolved naturally. Rather, I was sharing something I’d run across in a sort of ‘wow, look at this’ type of post. I find it informative and sometimes entertaining to look at some of it. For example, I’m assuming there really was the Doctor who was mentioned - and a real story about what happened that may or may not be known. The Straight Dope column is largely built on that being the case. Do you respond to every column debunking something with ‘Cecil believed that?’ Really, it’s kind of insulting, wrongly, and attacking people having a discussion about ‘urban myths’ and questions and things the column is about. What’s useful is the truth; not too little skepticism, and perhaps more importantly for some people, not too much. I happen to think the topic of what we know about the origins of HIV is a reasonable one - not one worthy of a snide crack about the ‘mission statement’. Had I said ‘did you hear aliens are behind HIV?’, you might have had a good reason; the small problem is, I didn’t say that. I think my post is more in keeping in spirit with the column than yours. Cecil tends to say ‘here’s the facts behind the crazy claim’, not just throw out snideness. I’m usually the one attempting to provide the facts to help inform people; sometimes it’s nice to be able to ask a question. ---
**Author:** ![Craig234](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Craig234](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Craig234)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2011, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-hiv/594483/10 "2011-08-29T14:23:13Z")
> [@StusBlues](#): > > Sorry–I saw that he only had four posts (at the time) but didn’t look at the join date. Ignorance fought. Your welcome back is no less appreciated. Thanks. As Jack Parr said, ‘As I was saying…’ 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![StusBlues](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@StusBlues](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StusBlues)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2011, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-hiv/594483/11 "2011-08-29T14:24:42Z")
That said, maybe it’s time for a brief addendum to Cecil’s article, given that Duesberg’s AIDS ideas have gone from “fringe but vaguely plausible” to “utterly devoid of merit” in the intervening eighteen years. ---
**Author:** ![Craig234](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Craig234](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Craig234)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2011, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-hiv/594483/12 "2011-08-29T14:40:21Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > Very > > Science doesn’t prove things, but the evidence is extremely strong and no alternative theory has stood up to examination. Thanks. Here’s a good article on the history of HIV: > **[Origin of HIV and AIDS | History of HIV](https://www.beintheknow.org/understanding-hiv-epidemic/context/origin-hiv-and-aids)** > > HIV is thought to have occurred when people ate chimps that carried the Simian Immunodeficiency Virus (SIV). Find out the history of the HIV & AIDS pandemic. As for science ‘proving things’, that may not be precise language, but I think it’s fine for discussion, it’s asking, ‘how certain is the evidence that it’s correct’. I’m not sure why the 32,000 year old SIV mutated in this time frame. ---
**Author:** ![Craig234](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Craig234](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Craig234)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2011, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-hiv/594483/13 "2011-08-29T14:41:41Z")
> [@StusBlues](#): > > That said, maybe it’s time for a brief addendum to Cecil’s article, given that Duesberg’s AIDS ideas have gone from “fringe but vaguely plausible” to “utterly devoid of merit” in the intervening eighteen years. I was thinking the same thing, actually. IMO, his column didn’t really address the larger question in its summary, either - just two particular theories. ---
**Author:** ![Craig234](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Craig234](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Craig234)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2011, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-hiv/594483/14 "2011-08-29T14:47:51Z")
I’ll quote the linked comment above, in case it’s of interest for any other points. In it, he’s actually debunking the SV40 allegations. One detail, while he claims the mutation happened around 1960, the article I linked above suggests it was decades earlier. The rest of his claims, well, that was the sort of ‘look at this’ stuff. (His comments seem contradictory between HIV mutated in 1960 and was seen in 1955). > [@](#): > > As the author of DR. MARY’S MONKEY, I write to clarify a few details in the above post. > > First, AIDS is caused by HIV-1 (the Human Immunodeficiency Virus) which is a sudden, but historic, mutation of SIV-1 (the Simian Immunodeficiency Virus), and this mutation occurred around 1960. Please know that “Simian” more or less means “monkey,” as does the term “primate.” > > Both HIV-1 and SIV-1 are single-stranded RNA viruses. known as “retro-viruses,” which have little genetic relationship to SV-40, which is a double stranded DNA virus. > > In fact, SV-40 and SIV-1 are from opposite sides of the globe. So, HIV-1 is not a mutation of SV-40, but of SIV-1, which is found in African Green Monkeys on the west coast of Africa. > > These African monkeys are frequently used in primate research and in the 1950s and 1960s, they were frequently caged together with Asian monkeys, like the Rhesus monkey, which is the natural host of SV-40. > > There was much cross-contamination of viruses between the monkeys, as is explained by Merck’s vaccine developer Maurice Hilleman in a video which you can view on DoctorMarysMonkey dot com. > > It is a historical fact that the kidneys from these Rhesus monkeys were then used to grow the viruses for the Salk and Sabin polio vaccines, and due to the cross-contamination, those kidneys were infected with both SV-40 and SIV-1, which is why both viruses were found in both polio vaccines released between 1955 and 1963. > > It was during this time frame that SV-40 was discovered to cause cancer, and it was quietly shown to be in nearly 200,000,000 doses of the polio vaccine, half of which were unreleased at the time of discover. > > The possibility of a cancer epidemic emerging in America as a result of the polio vaccine was feared by the scientists who were privy to these details. > > My analysis of the evidence leads me to conclude that these scientists persuaded the U.S. Government to set up a secret research facility to rapidly develop an anti-cancer vaccine to prevent the cancer epidemic which they feared. This project was set up on the grounds of the U.S. Public Health Service Hospital in New Orleans; a linear particle accelerator was placed in a building on its campus for the purpose of mutating SV-40 in hopes of developing an anti-cancer vaccine. It was a noble, but dangerous, project. > > The problem was that SIV-1 was also in those same samples, and when they expose SV-40 to the radiation, they also exposed SIV-1. > > At the time, medical science did not think that Retro-viruses (RNA viruses), which caused diseases in plants, could cause disease in humans. AIDS proved them wrong. > > I do think that the above scenario should be added to the list of possible origins of AIDS. It is one possiblity and fits with the timeline. I do not think, however, that Tulane Medical School or Ochsner Clinic, as organizations, participated in this project, though some individuals who were associated with those organizations, may have. > > Edward T. Haslam ---
**Author:** ![Mithras](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f04885/32.png) [@Mithras](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mithras)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2011, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-hiv/594483/15 "2011-08-29T16:04:58Z")
I’m surprised none of that radiation caused the scientists to grow 50 feet tall. I was under the impression there was a growing consensus (reached via genetic testing) that HIV first appeared around 1900. We might not have documented cases until the 50s, but that makes sense. If the symptoms of a disease are that it makes you prone to die from infections your body would normally fight off, it’d be pretty tough to spot for a generation. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2011, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-hiv/594483/16 "2011-08-29T18:52:03Z")
> [@Craig234](#): > > It doesn’t sound like you read the link; it sounded like he is debunking a set of claims about SV40 being linked, while making new claims about the history. I read the link. What I was addressing was your comment regarding “a large theory about the polio vaccine being found to cause cancer”. It has **not** been found to cause cancer, nor has SV40 been demonstrated to do so in any human population (see my NCI link provided earlier). As for the Top Secret Government Project that allegedly studied this and used radiation in an attempt to mutate the SV40 virus, I have trouble understanding why, if SV40 caused cancer, you’d want to mutate it to develop a cancer vaccine. Why not develop a vaccine against the naturally occurring, allegedly cancer-causing virus? The radiation claim is necessary to explain how HIV supposedly got accidentally created in a lab, but it doesn’t make sense. By the way, Maurice Hilleman (a pioneering and highly respected vaccine developer) has been at the center of conspiracy theorizing over SV40 and HIV for quite some time. A heavily circulated video (based on footage shot for a public TV special in Boston) includes an interview with Hilleman in which he makes a reference to HIV having originated in his lab. He is _obviously_ making a joke (both he and his interviewers laugh when this is mentioned) but the video is presented as though he was dead serious. [Hilleman’s Wikipedia page](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maurice_Hilleman) was repeatedly edited by nutbars seeking to include this tidbit. I see the current entry does not list it, but there’s an misleading reference to the “cancer-causing” SV40 virus which probably is the result of continuing editing efforts by antivaxers. ---
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-hiv/594483/17 "2011-08-30T00:15:32Z")
> [@StusBlues](#): > > Sorry–I saw that he only had four posts (at the time) but didn’t look at the join date. Ignorance fought. If someone forgets the link, it’s excusable for you to assume they’re a newbie. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-hiv/594483/18 "2011-08-30T03:01:59Z")
Look up Beatrice Hahn’s work on the epidemiology of HIV. ---
**Author:** ![colonial](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/34f0e0/32.png) [@colonial](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colonial)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-hiv/594483/19 "2011-08-30T04:17:11Z")
Why do we bother answering conspiracy theory paranoiacs? ---
**Author:** ![colonial](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/34f0e0/32.png) [@colonial](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colonial)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-hiv/594483/20 "2011-08-30T04:23:46Z")
So the CIA invented HIV, killed JFK, abducted all of Roswell, NM or something, and did a helluva job with that late 1960s lunar mock-up. We must always remember to be objective about such things, and keep an open mind! Thank you, making sure we are all up do date on stuff like this. Where would we be without people like you?! [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-hiv/594483.md?page=2)