# Origin of "Needs of the Many...." **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 31, 2013, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-needs-of-the-many/667659 "2013-08-31T15:10:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2017, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-needs-of-the-many/667659/21 "2017-07-10T19:00:41Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > You may have heard that phrase before as it or something like it has been used by every tyrant to justify crushing individual rights. It’s an abhorrent phrase. > > **Bryan Ekers** : I just finished watching the first season a while ago, and if anything Spock takes the opposite view several times. For example, in '‘Space Seed’ Spock is horrified at the utilitarian arguments for Khan’s dictatorship on Earth, even if it did bring an end to war, because it came at the cost of individual freedom. He also explicitly said in another episode that the rights of the individual should not be sacrified to the collective, or words to that effect. > > Another of the many reasons wht TOS was the best Star Trek. It’s kind of hard to picture the TNG crew having a disagreement, however minor and somewhat jovial, over something political. More likely, the “correct” side would be obvious and the characters all on it. _Maybe_ Worf would say something, but probably not. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2017, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-needs-of-the-many/667659/22 "2017-07-10T20:01:02Z")
Yep. Not only would it be true, but all right-thinking people in the society would agree. It was a progressive utopia. ---
**Author:** ![Louis\_Anthes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47774/32.png) [@Louis\_Anthes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Louis_Anthes)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2018, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-needs-of-the-many/667659/23 "2018-08-05T19:24:26Z")
One of the evocations of Spock’s words is owed to Plato, who discussed the idea of “the one” and “the few” and “the many” in discussing the Republic. Plato idealized a Republic in which all three forms were harmonized in a well-balanced whole governed by a philosopher-king, and he indicated that such a Republic would not last long and would result in a cycle of decay from tyranny to oligarchy to mob rule and then back to Republic, but although this was not likely the case. Spock is not speaking in utilitarian terms, because he uses the crucial word “needs.” John Stuart Mill’s utilitarianism is principally about happiness, not needs. Happiness is subjective and needs are objective, and so, when Spock is speaking, he is speaking about a more fundamental idea of a polity – its self-preservation rather than its moral or psychological improvement – that in some ways, Spock is trying to evoke Plato’s idealism about societal essences, rather than a collection of constituent governing entities such as individuals. Indeed, Spock’s words are meant to be an admonishment of Kirk, who had previously used the phrase earlier in the film, and so when Spock speaks Kirk’s words at Spock’s death, they evoke a wisdom of the philosopher-king (in this case also a man of action) who sacrifices himself for the good of the ship. Spock is saying that the wisdom of “the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one” is itself the hallmark of the leadership of the one, and in this way, Spock imparts his wisdom to Kirk, for his benefit, so as to justify to Kirk himself, on moral philosophical grounds, the appropriateness of Kirk resuming his command as CAPTAIN of the Enterprise, and not an admiral training cadets on simulators. It is an admonition of Kirk’s abdication of his leadership, of the apparent loss of value to his aging life, and it is a valorization of the beauty and rightness of assuming command for selfless reasons when one is fit. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2018, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-needs-of-the-many/667659/24 "2018-08-06T02:02:50Z")
> [@Louis\_Anthes](#): > > One of the evocations of Spock’s words is owed to Plato, who discussed the idea of “the one” and “the few” and “the many” in discussing the Republic. Plato idealized a Republic in which all three forms were harmonized in a well-balanced whole governed by a philosopher-king, and he indicated that such a Republic would not last long and would result in a cycle of decay from tyranny to oligarchy to mob rule and then back to Republic, but although this was not likely the case. > > Spock is not speaking in utilitarian terms, because he uses the crucial word “needs.” John Stuart Mill’s utilitarianism is principally about happiness, not needs. Happiness is subjective and needs are objective, and so, when Spock is speaking, he is speaking about a more fundamental idea of a polity – its self-preservation rather than its moral or psychological improvement – that in some ways, Spock is trying to evoke Plato’s idealism about societal essences, rather than a collection of constituent governing entities such as individuals. > > Indeed, Spock’s words are meant to be an admonishment of Kirk, who had previously used the phrase earlier in the film, and so when Spock speaks Kirk’s words at Spock’s death, they evoke a wisdom of the philosopher-king (in this case also a man of action) who sacrifices himself for the good of the ship. > > Spock is saying that the wisdom of “the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one” is itself the hallmark of the leadership of the one, and in this way, Spock imparts his wisdom to Kirk, for his benefit, so as to justify to Kirk himself, on moral philosophical grounds, the appropriateness of Kirk resuming his command as CAPTAIN of the Enterprise, and not an admiral training cadets on simulators. It is an admonition of Kirk’s abdication of his leadership, of the apparent loss of value to his aging life, and it is a valorization of the beauty and rightness of assuming command for selfless reasons when one is fit. Whoa! Hea-vy! 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Dave5249](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@Dave5249](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dave5249)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2019, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-needs-of-the-many/667659/25 "2019-12-01T13:34:17Z")
This was written in the 1st century by the Apostle John: John 11:49-50 But one of them, Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, said to them, “You know nothing at all; you do not understand that it is expedient for you that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation should not perish.” ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2019, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-needs-of-the-many/667659/26 "2019-12-01T13:48:36Z")
It’s a vague echo also of Shelley’s Mask of Anarchy: _Rise like Lions after slumber In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew Which in sleep had fallen on you - Ye are many - they are few._ ---
**Author:** ![Dave5249](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@Dave5249](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dave5249)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2019, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-needs-of-the-many/667659/27 "2019-12-01T13:49:55Z")
Nimoy was long active in the Jewish community, and could speak and read Yiddish. Consider that he first saw what became the famous Vulcan salute, “live long and prosper,” as a child at an Orthodox Jewish synagogue service in Boston. It’s understandable Nimoy would add other Jewish phrases into the script of Star Trek. ---
**Author:** ![Flyer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/flyer/32/7298_2.png) [@Flyer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flyer)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2019, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-needs-of-the-many/667659/28 "2019-12-01T16:06:45Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > You may have heard that phrase before as it or something like it has been used by every tyrant to justify crushing individual rights. It’s an abhorrent phrase. And yet most people instinctively agree with it, as shown by various versions of the Trolley Problem. When it comes down to brass tacks, I think you would agree with it too–unless you think that it’s ok to kill five people in order to save one. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2019, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-needs-of-the-many/667659/29 "2019-12-01T16:13:36Z")
False dichotomy. One might, for instance, take the position that it is never OK to kill any number of people, to save any number of others, regardless of what the numbers are. ---
**Author:** ![MacTech](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c0e974/32.png) [@MacTech](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MacTech)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2019, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-needs-of-the-many/667659/30 "2019-12-01T16:16:30Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Not a big Melville crowd here, huh? He’s not an easy read… > > I don’t remember a lot of Dickens outside of Kirk’s eulogy for Spock. But Kahn certainly laid the Moby Dick quotes pretty thick (" I’ll chase him round the Moons of Nibia, and round the Antares Maelstrom, and round Perdition’s flames…", “from hells heart I stab at thee…”). > > It’s from an old Klingon proverb. Just like that Famous Russian Epic of “Cinderella”… or this Klingon joke A Federation crewman arrives on Qo’Nos He approaches a guard, and asks “Can I get to the Great Hall?” The guard replies “If the bugs do not bite you…” ---
**Author:** ![Dave5249](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@Dave5249](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dave5249)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2019, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-needs-of-the-many/667659/31 "2019-12-01T16:59:53Z")
Most seem to be wandering off into the great beyond whereas the question was - What is Origin of “Needs of the Many…” ---
**Author:** ![RioRico](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f04885/32.png) [@RioRico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RioRico)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2019, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-needs-of-the-many/667659/32 "2019-12-02T02:46:53Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > False dichotomy. One might, for instance, take the position that it is never OK to kill any number of people, to save any number of others, regardless of what the numbers are. Then a mass-murderer on the loose shouldn’t be killed, to prevent more killings? Conscientious military leaders sweat the number of their troops who must die to achieve an objective. I fear those who don’t so sweat. Peaceful resolutions would always be nice, sure. But the Trolley Problem looms, whether facing human or other threats to a group’s safety. How to PREVENT the necessity that some must die so others may live? ---
**Author:** ![Kron](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kron/32/12444_2.png) [@Kron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kron)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2019, 8:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-needs-of-the-many/667659/33 "2019-12-02T08:08:03Z")
> [@RioRico](#): > > Then a mass-murderer on the loose shouldn’t be killed, to prevent more killings? Yes, some would take the stance that killing the mass murderer is unacceptable, and would make you just another murderer. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-needs-of-the-many/667659.md?page=1)