# Origin of Nigger? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 9, 2005, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-nigger/325385 "2005-10-09T07:06:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Debuhdee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dc4da7/32.png) [@Debuhdee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debuhdee)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2005, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-nigger/325385/1 "2005-10-09T07:06:24Z")
Long time lurker, first time poster. I’m black, so calm down. What is the origin of the word nigger? Wikipedia tells me all sorts of things I already know, but it doesn’t tell me what the origin of the word is. Can Dopers help a brutha out? ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2005, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-nigger/325385/2 "2005-10-09T07:15:21Z")
The Oxford English Dictionary says it comes from English “neger”, which in turn comes from the Frech “negre”, which comes from the Spanish “negro”, and that ultimately comes from the Latin “nigrum” or “niger”, meaning “black”. There’s not much dfference in spelling between Latin “niger” and English “nigger”, but all those iintermediate forms are documented. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2005, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-nigger/325385/3 "2005-10-09T17:23:52Z")
The other day I heard an extremely unreliable cite that it came from the country Niger. Which seems intuitive, but is there any connection there at all? ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2005, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-nigger/325385/4 "2005-10-09T17:38:03Z")
I may be in for a major mind-overturning shock, but I’ve always assumed, with one of those “It’s totally freaking obvious” attitudes overlaying it, that it is (of course) just a bad, Southern-inflected mispronunciation of the Spanish word “negro”. The “polite” non-racist version preferred up until the 1960s switchoff to “black” was “Negro”, conventionally pronounced “knee-grow”, i.e., anglicized from the Spanish which would be “nay-grow”. There was an in-between “polite” pronunciation one would sometimes hear in the South, “nih-grah”, which is also pretty obviously an attempt by non-spanish-speaking folks to say the Spanish word “negro”. I can’t seriously entertain the notion that “nigger” isn’t a variation on the Spanish “negro” like all the others, not without some solid cites to back it up. “Nigger” obtains its ugly insulting characteristics from context and connotation. It may have originated as “black” but it was used to reference black slaves in a slaveowning context. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2005, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-nigger/325385/5 "2005-10-09T17:40:25Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > The other day I heard an extremely unreliable cite that it came from the country Niger. Which seems intuitive, but is there any connection there at all? Not really. Oddly enough, the name of the country, which was named after the Niger River, does not seem to be directly related to the Latin _niger_ (though it perhaps was later influenced by it). According to _The Strong Brown God: The Story of the Niger River_, by Sanche de Gramont (1975), the first reference to the river by that name was by the Rome-educated Berber king of Numidia (now Algeria), Juba II, in the first century BC. According to Gramont, the name seems to be derived from the Taureg expression _n’ger-n-gereo,_ which means “river of rivers,” rather than Latin. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2005, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-nigger/325385/6 "2005-10-09T17:46:25Z")
It only seems intuitive if you reverse cause and effect. The OED lists the origin of Niger as equal to neger or negro. IOW, both words simply come from “black.” In fact, my compact OED, based on the 1920’s edition, doesn’t even have a listing for a country of that name. Although the spelling niger precedes the spelling nigger, it is just one of a number of variants including neager, neeger, negar, negur, and negre. All come from the French nègre or the Spanish negro, meaning black. Neger is also found in all the Germanic languages. Using niger or neger for a black dates in England to the 16th century. Nigger is attested from the 18th century. They all can be thought to be variations of nègre or negro, but the dwellers in the American south had nothing to do with inventing the word or the pronunciation or their pejorative nature, for that matter. They had been around for centuries. Again, it only seems intuitive because of more recent history. ---
**Author:** ![Rodgers01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b19c9b/32.png) [@Rodgers01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rodgers01)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2005, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-nigger/325385/7 "2005-10-09T17:53:19Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > I may be in for a major mind-overturning shock, but I’ve always assumed, with one of those “It’s totally freaking obvious” attitudes overlaying it, that it is (of course) just a bad, Southern-inflected mispronunciation of the Spanish word “negro”. The “polite” non-racist version preferred up until the 1960s switchoff to “black” was “Negro”, conventionally pronounced “knee-grow”, i.e., anglicized from the Spanish which would be “nay-grow”. There was an in-between “polite” pronunciation one would sometimes hear in the South, “nih-grah”, which is also pretty obviously an attempt by non-spanish-speaking folks to say the Spanish word “negro”. I was under the impression that “nih-grah” was just the slur form for black females; am I wrong? A professor wrote a brief history of the word a few years ago; I think it was just called “Nigger.” That might help, if you can’t find the answer elsewhere. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2005, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-nigger/325385/8 "2005-10-09T18:38:04Z")
> [@Rodgers01](#): > > I was under the impression that “nih-grah” was just the slur form for black females; am I wrong? That pronunciation was not sexually dependant; it was simply regional pronunciation. (Negress is considered demeaning in the way that Jewess is considered demeaning, but I have never heard any association of _nih gruh_ with gender.) As **AHunter3** notes, the various forms of _nih groh_, _nih grah_, and _nih grah_ were simply local pronunciations for Negro that eventually were shortened to _nih gr’_ and the phonetic spelling used two "g"s to indicate that the first vowel was short (as opposed to Niger which would have been _nee ger_ in Latin or anglicized to _nye ger_). ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2005, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-nigger/325385/9 "2005-10-09T18:41:32Z")
Slight, but interesting, hijack: Arnold Schwarzenegger’s last name means “black-black.” ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2005, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-nigger/325385/10 "2005-10-09T18:58:13Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > the phonetic spelling used two "g"s to indicate that the first vowel was short (as opposed to Niger which would have been nee ger in Latin or anglicized to nye ger). I would make this assumption too except that there is no evidence in the OED that niger was ever pronounced with a long eye. All I can find is support that was pronounced similarly to niggar and nigger. What evidence do you have that supports your claim? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2005, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-nigger/325385/11 "2005-10-09T19:24:46Z")
Current pronunciation of the river among everyone in the U.S., Canada, South Africa, and Britain witrh whom I have discussed issues regarding the slave trade or the European colonization of Africa. I was not even aware until recently that anyone used the other pronunciations for the river (as opposed to the country, where francophone pronunciations have tended to dominate). (I don’t recall any conversations with Australians or New Zealanders on the subject.) Just to check whether I hallucinated those exchanges, I checked my 1964 Webster’s 7th Collegiate and the Pronouncing Gazeteer provides the same pronuunciation, so _someone_ has been saying it that way. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2005, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-nigger/325385/12 "2005-10-09T19:58:03Z")
I agree that dictionaries give the name of the river as nye-ger, which means that the nye-ger river runs through nee-shzar. :smack: But I thought we were talking about the word niger as applied to black people, which is not the same thing at all. Admittedly, **tdn** asked about a connection but that appears to be as extremely unreliable as he feared. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2005, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-nigger/325385/13 "2005-10-09T20:17:20Z")
OK. I was addressing a completely separate issue of orthography. Once the pronunciation _nih gr’_ was established in the U.S South, people who included that pronunciation in written exchanges would have used a “gg” formulation in order to keep the first vowel short. The only connection to Niger is that it has a single “g” and its initial vowel is long. Similar orthographic constructs occur in diner vs dinner, biter vs bitter, griper vs gripper, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2005, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-nigger/325385/14 "2005-10-09T20:42:03Z")
> [@Exapno Mapcase](#): > > It only seems intuitive if you reverse cause and effect. The OED lists the origin of Niger as equal to neger or negro. IOW, both words simply come from “black.” In fact, my compact OED, based on the 1920’s edition, doesn’t even have a listing for a country of that name. I’m not sure what you mean by “'reverse cause and effect.” Do you mean you think that the Taureg word for “river” is somehow derived from the Latin for “black?” Interestingly, some sites, such as [this one](http://www.lexicalgas.com/read.php?1,301081,301628,quote=1), allege that the Latin word _niger_ is actually derived from the name of the river, not vice-versa, claiming that the original Latin word for black was _ater_. Since I don’t know much about the history of Latin, for all I know this could be complete BS. Any Latin scholars care to comment? Does the OED give a date for first use of “Niger” with reference to the river? Pliny and Ptolemy, writing in the first and second centuries AD, seem to be the next writers to refer to it after Juba. I can’t vouch for Gramont’s derivation, especially since he doesn’t specifically state that Juba II used the Taureg phrase. However, [this site](http://niger-river.ask.dyndns.dk/) also mentions that there is speculation that the name came from either the Taureg, which they give as _gher n gherem_, or from the Danubion word for _flow._ The country of course didn’t become independent until 1960, but as far as I can tell the French colony, a subdivision of French West Africa, went by that name from the early 1900s, becoming a separate colony in 1922. Earlier the region was part of the Tukolor Empire, and before that the Songhai and Bornu Empires. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Rieux](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Dr.Rieux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Rieux)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2005, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-nigger/325385/15 "2005-10-09T21:18:23Z")
> [@Eve](#): > > Slight, but interesting, hijack: Arnold Schwarzenegger’s last name means “black-black.” Arnold claims it means “black plowman.” ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2005, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-nigger/325385/16 "2005-10-09T21:31:04Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Interestingly, some sites, such as [this one](http://www.lexicalgas.com/read.php?1,301081,301628,quote=1), allege that the Latin word _niger_ is actually derived from the name of the river, not vice-versa, claiming that the original Latin word for black was _ater_. Since I don’t know much about the history of Latin, for all I know this could be complete BS. Any Latin scholars care to comment? My best Dic. of Etymology says that the English word “black” as an adjective in no way is connected to Latin. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2005, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-nigger/325385/17 "2005-10-09T21:39:36Z")
> [@samclem](#): > > My best Dic. of Etymology says that the English word “black” as an adjective in no way is connected to Latin. I would not have thought so. To be clear, my question is about the history of the two Latin words _niger_ and _ater_, both of which mean “dark-colored” or “black,” in particular whether or not _niger_ existed in the language before the 1st Century BC. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2005, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-nigger/325385/18 "2005-10-09T21:49:25Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > I would not have thought so. To be clear, my question is about the history of the two Latin words _niger_ and _ater_, both of which mean “dark-colored” or “black,” in particular whether or not _niger_ existed in the language before the 1st Century BC. I’m getting in over my head now. The OED says that _niger_ as a noun is from Classical Latin(200 BC-300 AD). They also say that > [@](#): > > [\< the name of the river Niger, the largest river of West Africa \< post-classical Latin Niger (late 5th cent.), classical Latin Nigris, prob. denoting the same river, app. \< niger black (see NIGER n.1). > Niger occurs as the name of the river in English contexts from c1600 onwards.] ---
**Author:** ![bibliophage](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bibliophage/32/7615_2.png) [@bibliophage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bibliophage)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2005, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-nigger/325385/19 "2005-10-09T22:13:34Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Interestingly, some sites, such as [this one](http://www.lexicalgas.com/read.php?1,301081,301628,quote=1), allege that the Latin word _niger_ is actually derived from the name of the river, not vice-versa, claiming that the original Latin word for black was _ater_. Since I don’t know much about the history of Latin, for all I know this could be complete BS. Any Latin scholars care to comment? I can’t get the link to work, but it is almost certainly BS. Like English, Latin had several words meaning “black” or “dark in color,” all of them, as far as I know, derived from Proto-Indo-European, not any African language. The Latin _niger_ derives from a Proto-Indo-European root that implied something like “dusky” or “becoming dark.” This or a closely related root gives us Latin _nox_ and English _night_. Latin _ater_ meaning “black” comes from a PIE root that probably mean something like “smoky” or “charred”. I am not aware of any native English words (i.e., those derived directly from proto-Germanic) that come from this root, but via Latin we get _atrium_ and _atrociuous_. _Zircon_, borrowed from Persian, is from the same PIE root, despite the obvious dissimilarities in the form of the word. Latin _sordidus_, meaning dark on account of being dirty, derived from the same PIE root as English “swarthy.” Latin _fuscus_ (“dark” or “black”) comes from a PIE root meaning “cloud” from which we get English “dusk.” English _black_ comes from a PIE root meaning, strange to say, “shining” or something similar. The Latin words derived from the same PIE root don’t mean anything like “black” or “dark.” _Flavus_, for example, means “yellow” and _fulgere_ means “to flash.” ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2005, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-nigger/325385/20 "2005-10-09T22:17:40Z")
Thanks, **bib.** I did some more research myself too. Juba II’s dates were 52 BC - 23 AD. However, the poet Catullus (ca. 84 BC-ca. 55 BC) used the word _nigris_ in [this poem](http://www.dl.ket.org/latinlit/carmina/catullus/poems/poem43.htm), which would preclude it coming from Juba’s writings. So I think we can say the derivation is BS. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-nigger/325385.md?page=2)