# Origin of phrase "man or mouse?" **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 3, 2006, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-phrase-man-or-mouse/355215 "2006-05-03T11:38:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![fluffyemu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9bcb4/32.png) [@fluffyemu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fluffyemu)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2006, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-phrase-man-or-mouse/355215/1 "2006-05-03T11:38:30Z")
On an entirely different note from my previous thread, does anyone know the origin of the phrase “man or mouse?” I’m sure it’s on the internet somewhere, but my attempts on searching google for it have resulted in nothing other than what the term means and books in which it has been used. ---
**Author:** ![Nametag](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nametag/32/406_2.png) [@Nametag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nametag)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2006, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-phrase-man-or-mouse/355215/2 "2006-05-03T15:16:39Z")
> [@fluffyemu](#): > > On an entirely different note from my previous thread, does anyone know the origin of the phrase “man or mouse?” I’m sure it’s on the internet somewhere, but my attempts on searching google for it have resulted in nothing other than what the term means and books in which it has been used. The first appearance I can find of “Are you a man or a mouse?” is in the 1937 Marx Brothers film “A Day at the Races.” I’m sure it was already common by that time. ---
**Author:** ![groman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/73ab20/32.png) [@groman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/groman)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2006, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-phrase-man-or-mouse/355215/3 "2006-05-03T19:04:52Z")
But Mousie, thou are no thy-lane, In proving foresight may be vain: The best laid schemes o’ Mice an’ Men, Gang aft agley, An’ lea’e us nought but grief an’ pain, For promis’d joy! Perhaps it’s a corruption of the original meaning? ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2006, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-phrase-man-or-mouse/355215/4 "2006-05-04T00:00:00Z")
I can find an editorial writer from 1879 taunting Rutherford B. Hayes with the phrase. Sorrry that isn’t much help. I’ll try to do some more on it if I get time. ---
**Author:** ![Penfeather](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penfeather/32/384_2.png) [@Penfeather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penfeather)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2018, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-phrase-man-or-mouse/355215/5 "2018-03-14T19:19:24Z")
> [@samclem](#): > > I can find an editorial writer from 1879 taunting Rutherford B. Hayes with the phrase. Sorrry that isn’t much help. I’ll try to do some more on it if I get time. [Bump.](https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/322561/are-you-a-man-or-a-mouse-phrase-origin) ---
**Author:** ![Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/earl_snake-hips_tucker/32/3269_2.png) [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earl_Snake-Hips_Tucker)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2018, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-phrase-man-or-mouse/355215/6 "2018-03-14T19:26:20Z")
> [@Nametag](#): > > The first appearance I can find of “Are you a man or a mouse?” is in the 1937 Marx Brothers film “A Day at the Races.” I’m sure it was already common by that time. I think Spanky’s conscience says it to him in [Mama’s Little Pirate (1934)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mama%27s_Little_Pirate). But as already noted, it had apparently already gained currency. ---
**Author:** ![DavidwithanR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2018, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-phrase-man-or-mouse/355215/7 "2018-03-14T19:38:57Z")
I’m guessing that this comparison has been an obvious and natural one to make since humans’ first attempts at building a place to store food and their observation of the results. Therefore, it might make more sense to look for particular famous ways of saying it, rather than just any man-vs.-mouse comparison. ---
**Author:** ![JWT\_Kottekoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/3ec8ea/32.png) [@JWT\_Kottekoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JWT_Kottekoe)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2018, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-phrase-man-or-mouse/355215/8 "2018-03-15T02:52:44Z")
> [@groman](#): > > But Mousie, thou are no thy-lane, > In proving foresight may be vain: > The best laid schemes o’ Mice an’ Men, > Gang aft agley, > An’ lea’e us nought but grief an’ pain, > For promis’d joy! > > Perhaps it’s a corruption of the original meaning? This was my first thought, Robert Burns, “To A Mouse”, 1785 ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2018, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-phrase-man-or-mouse/355215/9 "2018-03-15T12:45:40Z")
[1564 description by Nicholas Udall of Caesar’s crossing the Rubicon:](https://books.google.com/books?id=wTMCAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA297) > [@](#): > > When he departed out of the prouince of Galle, to matche against Pompeius, assone as he was ones passed ouer the flood of Rubicon, now (saieth he) be it past casting the dice again […] > > Declaryng that he was vtterly mynded to put all in hasarde to make or marre, & to bee man or mous. Udall’s work is a translation of Erasmus’s Latin _Apophthegmatum opus_, where [the original anecdote does **not** contain the “man or mouse” phrase](https://books.google.com/books?id=HYhNAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA170): > [@](#): > > Cum ex Gallia prouincia aduersus Pompeium tenderet, Rubicone amne transmisso, dixit: Omnis iacta sit alea: significance se de summa rerum uelle periclitari. The [Online Etymology dictionary](https://www.etymonline.com/word/man) has > [@](#): > > _To be man or mouse_ “be brave or be timid” is from 1540s possibly referring to the first edition of Udall’s work in 1542. ---
**Author:** ![psychonaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/psychonaut/32/4655_2.png) [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2018, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-phrase-man-or-mouse/355215/10 "2018-03-15T13:16:58Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > The [Online Etymology dictionary](https://www.etymonline.com/word/man) has > > possibly referring to the first edition of Udall’s work in 1542. I can do one year earlier than that: The line “Fear not, she saith vnto her spouse, A man or a Mouse whether be ye” appears in _The Scholehouse of Women_, an antifeminist satirical poem probably written by [Edward Gosynhyll](https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Gosynhyll,_Edward_%28DNB00%29). It was first published, anonymously, in London in 1541. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2018, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-phrase-man-or-mouse/355215/11 "2018-03-15T17:22:01Z")
Nice. I wonder if it really does originate around that time or has a much longer textual history that just hasn’t been spotted yet. ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2018, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-phrase-man-or-mouse/355215/12 "2018-03-15T17:35:23Z")
[**It thus appears that explicitly asking a person whether he is a man or a mouse goes back at least as far as The Schole-house of Women, which was published as early as 1541**](https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/322561/are-you-a-man-or-a-mouse-phrase-origin) and is quoted by Hazlitt from editions drawn from 1560 and 1572. Nevertheless, the (almost) exact wording “Are you a man or a mouse?” doesn’t appear in Google Book search results until a flurry of references to the following joke (taken here from The Literary Digest (May 13, 1905), which cites the Cleveland [Ohio] Ledger as its source: MRS. PECK (contemptuously): “What are you, anyhow, a man or a mouse?” MR. PECK (bitterly): “A man, my dear. If I were a mouse I’d have you up on that table yelling for help right now.” **And the first exact match for “Are you a man or a mouse?” appears in The Railway Maintenance of Way Employes Journal (September 1921):** Trinidad, Colo[rado], Lodge 204.—Are you a man or a mouse? By observation I have noticed that the man who of his own free will and accord, becomes a member of a labor organization, pays his dues promptly and attends meetings regularly, is a man. He can always be depended on for any duty that may be required by the lodge. ---
**Author:** ![psychonaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/psychonaut/32/4655_2.png) [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2018, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-phrase-man-or-mouse/355215/13 "2018-03-15T17:46:52Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > It thus appears that explicitly asking a person whether he is a man or a mouse goes back at least as far as The Schole-house of Women, which was published as early as 1541 Are you Sven Yargs? If not, it would have been courteous to credit him as the author of your (entire) post. Mind you, I already mentioned “The Scholehouse of Women” upthread—repeating it in a bold 36-point font isn’t going to fool anyone into thinking that you thought of it first. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2018, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-phrase-man-or-mouse/355215/14 "2018-03-15T21:09:47Z")
Putting the best light on it perhaps **Jasmine** didn’t click the bump link which led to Sven’s post and found it instead by googling. Which of course still doesn’t excuse the lack of an acknowledgement. Impressive finds BTW, both by Sven and you yourself, **Psychonaut.** ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2018, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-phrase-man-or-mouse/355215/15 "2018-03-15T23:53:09Z")
I have no more information about the origin of the phrase, but here is a useful flowchart to determine whether you are indeed a man or a small furry rodent. [http://viz.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Man-or-Mouse.jpg](http://viz.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Man-or-Mouse.jpg)