# Origin of phrase "Put the lie to" **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 18, 2005, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-phrase-put-the-lie-to/304435 "2005-05-18T17:02:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Alonzo\_John\_Blitz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@Alonzo\_John\_Blitz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alonzo_John_Blitz)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2005, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-phrase-put-the-lie-to/304435/1 "2005-05-18T17:02:06Z")
I have searched the Cambridge Dictionaries, Wordwizard and the SDMB, and cannot find the origin of the phrase “Put the lie to”. Can anybody help me out here? ---
**Author:** ![TellMeI\_mNotCrazy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tellmei_mnotcrazy/32/3419_2.png) [@TellMeI\_mNotCrazy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TellMeI_mNotCrazy)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2005, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-phrase-put-the-lie-to/304435/2 "2005-05-18T17:04:24Z")
I’ve never even heard the phrase. What’s the context it’s generally used in? ---
**Author:** ![CynicalGabe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3e96dc/32.png) [@CynicalGabe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CynicalGabe)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2005, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-phrase-put-the-lie-to/304435/3 "2005-05-18T17:08:58Z")
I have not heard that, however I have heard “put the truth to the lie”. You might want to try searching for that. ---
**Author:** ![Alonzo\_John\_Blitz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@Alonzo\_John\_Blitz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alonzo_John_Blitz)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2005, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-phrase-put-the-lie-to/304435/4 "2005-05-18T17:37:40Z")
**Tellme** , the term is usually used to make the point that something has been disproven. When you google the phrase, more than 18,000 instances come up, i.e.; … “They put the lie to their own propaganda”. Apple has put the lie to the RIAA and all the more powr to them! State Regulations Put the Lie to Slot Machine Myths. the woman who single-handedly put the lie to the foolish contention that the succubae were mythical. … Spanish officials put the lie to FBI case in Madrid bombing. etc. Thanks, **Cynical** I’ll try that approach. ---
**Author:** ![rowrrbazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rowrrbazzle/32/414_2.png) [@rowrrbazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rowrrbazzle)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2005, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-phrase-put-the-lie-to/304435/5 "2005-05-18T18:21:16Z")
I’ve never heard “put the lie to” until now. The phrase I’ve always heard is “give/gives/gave the lie to”. At the bottom of [this page](http://onlinedictionary.datasegment.com/word/to+give+the+lie+to): ```auto To give the lie to. (a) To charge with falsehood; as, the man gave him the lie. **(b) To reveal to be false; as, a man's actions may give the lie to his words.** ``` That might give you a lead. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2005, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-phrase-put-the-lie-to/304435/6 "2005-05-19T00:30:39Z")
> [@rowrrbazzle](#): > > The phrase I’ve always heard is “give/gives/gave the lie to”. The first thing I thought of was the [poem](http://www.poetry-archive.com/r/the_lie.html) by Walter Raleigh ---
**Author:** ![Alonzo\_John\_Blitz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@Alonzo\_John\_Blitz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alonzo_John_Blitz)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-phrase-put-the-lie-to/304435/7 "2005-05-20T14:47:33Z")
Thanks for all the help, folks. I especially like the Walter Raleigh poem, **Thudlow**. Still looking for the OP line, though. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2015, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-phrase-put-the-lie-to/304435/8 "2015-06-29T12:06:23Z")
Time to solve this 10-year-old mystery. The expression is either “gives the lie to” or “puts paid to.” Sometimes people conflate those two expressions (as I did in another thread today) as “puts the lie to.” ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2015, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-phrase-put-the-lie-to/304435/9 "2015-06-29T12:08:58Z")
Now let’s put this thread back to sleep for another 10 years. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2015, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-phrase-put-the-lie-to/304435/10 "2015-06-29T15:41:28Z")
> [@Spoke](#): > > Time to solve this 10-year-old mystery. > > The expression is either “gives the lie to” or “puts paid to.” > > Sometimes people conflate those two expressions (as I did in another thread today) as “puts the lie to.” No, sometimes people use “put the lie to” as a variant of “give the lie to.” It’s real and can be cited. [“put the lie to”](https://www.google.com/search?q=%22put+the+lie+to%22&btnG=Search+Books&tbm=bks&tbo=1) Some poking around suggests that it is more of an Americanism of the British original. That doesn’t explain the precise origin, but variants on phrases occur all the time and some increase in popularity. Couldn’t let the thread sleep on an answer that’s blatantly wrong. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2015, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-phrase-put-the-lie-to/304435/11 "2015-06-29T16:23:47Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Some poking around suggests that it is more of an Americanism of the British original. That doesn’t explain the precise origin, but variants on phrases occur all the time and some increase in popularity. You could suggest it to [http://separatedbyacommonlanguage.blogspot.com](http://separatedbyacommonlanguage.blogspot.co.uk/) for a bit of background research. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2015, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-phrase-put-the-lie-to/304435/12 "2015-06-29T18:30:24Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > No, sometimes people use “put the lie to” as a variant of “give the lie to.” It’s real and can be cited. > > [“put the lie to”](https://www.google.com/search?q=%22put+the+lie+to%22&btnG=Search+Books&tbm=bks&tbo=1) > > Some poking around suggests that it is more of an Americanism of the British original. That doesn’t explain the precise origin, but variants on phrases occur all the time and some increase in popularity. > > Couldn’t let the thread sleep on an answer that’s blatantly wrong. The fact that you found 56,000 examples just means it’s a common mistake. A similar search for “gives the lie to” yields [525,000 results](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=18477548), while “put paid to” yields [827,000 results](https://www.google.com/search?q=%22put+the+lie+to%22&btnG=Search+Books&tbm=bks&tbo=1#tbm=bks&q=%22put+paid+to%22). Now, I’ll grant you that what starts as a mistake can become an accepted usage, and maybe this usage has reached that point. But I doubt it started as anything but what I suggest: a conflation of two phrases which often get used to convey the same idea. ---
**Author:** ![Kenm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bc79bd/32.png) [@Kenm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kenm)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2015, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-phrase-put-the-lie-to/304435/13 "2015-06-29T18:37:27Z")
[**nm**](http://www.wordsense.eu/give_the_lie_to/) ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2015, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-phrase-put-the-lie-to/304435/14 "2015-06-29T20:26:49Z")
> [@Spoke](#): > > Now, I’ll grant you that what starts as a mistake can become an accepted usage, and maybe this usage has reached that point. It certainly has, which is why saying that “The expression is either ‘gives the lie to’ or ‘puts paid to’” can’t be let to stand. Even if it wasn’t accepted usage, what difference would that have made to the OP’s question about its origin? Non-accepted usage has origins every bit as real as accepted usage. > [@](#): > > But I doubt it started as anything but what I suggest: a conflation of two phrases which often get used to convey the same idea. That’s possible, to be sure, although to me “put paid to” is a separate phrase with a considerably different meaning. Therefore I doubt it very much. ---
**Author:** ![rsa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/839c29/32.png) [@rsa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rsa)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-phrase-put-the-lie-to/304435/15 "2015-06-30T00:43:58Z")
I’m familiar with the “put the lie to” variation. ISTM that it may be a matter of regional variation. I’m from the south, so there’s one data point.