# origin of phrase **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 12, 2003, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-phrase/148193 "2003-01-12T21:35:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 6\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2003, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-phrase/148193/1 "2003-01-12T21:35:00Z")
I have e-mailed The Master directly with this question, but I thought perhaps the fertile minds of all y’all dopers might know: what is the origin of the phrase “keep turning up like a bad penny”? Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/earl_snake-hips_tucker/32/3269_2.png) [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earl_Snake-Hips_Tucker)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2003, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-phrase/148193/2 "2003-01-12T21:53:22Z")
Here’s what I found with a quick Google search Can’t attest to it’s accuracy, though. [http://www.co.uk.lspace.org/books/apf/reaper-man.html](http://www.co.uk.lspace.org/books/apf/reaper-man.html) ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2003, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-phrase/148193/3 "2003-01-12T22:31:46Z")
That’s a tough one. The term “bad penny” to mean a false coin appears in English in 1393. And it was used in a sense about people, not coins. So the term “bad penny” was evidently in use as a metaphor qute early. The phrase “to turn up” meaning “to appear” doesn’t seem to show up until about the early 1700’s. I can’t find the exact phrase. The OED is the logical place to find it, but it’s not there. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2003, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-phrase/148193/4 "2003-01-12T22:56:17Z")
So, next I tried searching my **very limited** databases in the US. At least limited from what I can search at home. The term “bad penny” starts to show up here about the 1850’s. It is referred to in an 1857 quote as a Scotch proverb(no proof) saying “A bad penny always returns.” Also from 1850 and 1851, as “comes back like a bad penny.” So! it wasn’t always “turning up like a bad penny.” ---
**Author:** ![Nametag](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nametag/32/406_2.png) [@Nametag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nametag)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2003, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-phrase/148193/5 "2003-01-13T03:51:03Z")
Well, SamClem, 1850 is very, very late in the history of this word. I’m going to make a very WAG about this. “Bad penny” might refer to a _swindler’s penny_, one with two heads, or one that is deliberately unbalanced, so that when you flip it (as to settle a dispute), the coin will never “turn down”; a bad penny will always turn up. So the expression, with regard to people showing up, is a pun (more precisely, a zeugma)! “Turning up like a bad penny!” Ha! Nevermind. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2003, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-phrase/148193/6 "2003-01-13T04:56:40Z")
**Nametag**. I offered that the term “bad penny” went back to the 14th century. It could easily appear in the US before my 1850 cite. I mentioned that I had limited access to search for the term from home. If you have a cite as to the term “swindler’s penny”, I’d love to see it. On rereading, I assume you were just setting up your joke(pun)?