# Origin of Snark **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 17, 2007, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-snark/388270 "2007-01-17T00:28:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2007, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-snark/388270/1 "2007-01-17T00:28:10Z")
How long has snark been used in its current sense? Wiki lists a 2001 West Wing episode, but surely it’s much older than that on the net. ---
**Author:** ![Cunctator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/43a26b/32.png) [@Cunctator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cunctator)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2007, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-snark/388270/2 "2007-01-17T00:39:49Z")
Its current sense being…? I’ve only ever heard it in relation to the Lewis Carroll poem. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2007, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-snark/388270/3 "2007-01-17T01:30:14Z")
Snark, n. A type of boojum. ---
**Author:** ![Powder\_Blue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/858c86/32.png) [@Powder\_Blue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Powder_Blue)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2007, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-snark/388270/4 "2007-01-17T01:36:05Z")
[QUOTE=Cunctator] Its current sense being…? I’ve only ever heard it in relation to the Lewis Carroll poem. [/QUOTE] I think the OP is asking when the term “snarky”, an adjective, came to be popularily used as a noun (as in “dispensing snark”) and verb (as in “to snark on”). ---
**Author:** ![hawthorne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@hawthorne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hawthorne)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2007, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-snark/388270/5 "2007-01-17T02:08:39Z")
The verb form is fairly old - older than Carroll’s fictional animal: > [@](#): > > _OED_ > snark, v. > dial. > […] > 2. intr. and trans. To find fault (with), to nag. > 1882 Jamieson’s Sc. Dict. IV. 314/2 To Snark,..to fret, grumble, or find fault with one. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2007, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-snark/388270/6 "2007-01-17T03:07:48Z")
A bunch of examples (from the hundreds and hundreds that search brought up) from the Dope: > [@](#): > > Well, my family arrived in 16-something. So, perhaps you’re right. I don’t think it’s relevant, except to add snark to an already heated discussion. I don’t think anyone here is against immigration per se-just illegal immigration. > [@](#): > > You forgot to mention that there will be a plot twist midway through the season. Things are not as they seem. > > Oh, and Chloe will lay down the snark on someone. > [@](#): > > The “Dollarmenuaires” commercial for McDonalds. They are trying to take off the VH1 “Best Week Ever” type of show. The talking head is “Jeremy Miller,” delivering snark about these losers who can only afford the cheapest shit on the menu. > [@](#): > > I say snide things to relatives all the time for much samller offenses. (You can say that makes me a rude guy if you want, but I have some annoying relatives and snark is a currency my family trades in.) > [@](#): > > And to be honest, I’m tired enough of the constant attacks and same old stuff being said, and fending off false accusations, that some amount of snark has most definitely worked its way into my repertoire. > [@](#): > > You jumped in with the snark in your second post without bothering to ask for clarification first. That last quote is from 2002, as far back as I could search, and the meaning is exactly as it is today. Which is different enough from the 1882 OED cite to qualify as a new usage. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2007, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-snark/388270/7 "2007-01-17T03:23:03Z")
Perhaps the meaning that the OP is searching for is found in the adjectival sense: From the OED > [@](#): > > Irritable, short-tempered, ‘narky’. > > 1906 E. NESBIT Railway Children ii. 49 Don’t be snarky, Peter. It isn’t our fault. 1913 J. VAIZEY College Girl xxiv. 326 ‘Why should you think I am “snarky”?’ ‘Becauseyou are! You’re not a bit sociable and friendly.’ 1953 E. COXHEAD Midlanders x. 247 I’ve known you were the soul of kindness, under that snarky way. a1974 R. CROSSMAN Diaries (1976) II. 627 We also have to overcome something elsethe stream of anti-government propaganda, smearing, snarky, derisive, which comes out of Fleet Street. > Hence snarkily adv.; snarkiness; snarkish a. > > 1912 R. FRY Let. 16 Mar. (1972) I. 355 So sorry I seem so snarkish just now. 1960 Economist 28 May 859/2 In some of his comments on bureaucracy there is a relapse into snarkiness. 1967 Listener 20 July 91/3 Viewers’ letters are not just read out. They are commented upon by Kenneth Robinson (usually rather snarkily). ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2007, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-snark/388270/8 "2007-01-17T04:01:16Z")
I think most people agree that snark is a back-formation from snarky. The [Urban Dictionary page](http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=snark) on it doesn’t (or some don’t), but you go there for examples of usage not etymology. The question to me is whether snark itself was used regularly earlier or whether it developed as a piece of internet slang. And if the latter, when. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2007, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-snark/388270/9 "2007-01-17T04:10:40Z")
[QUOTE=Exapno Mapcase] The question to me is whether snark itself was used regularly earlier or whether it developed as a piece of internet slang. And if the latter, when. [/QUOTE] If you have the patience, you can of course do that by searching Google Groups. You knew that. Unfortunately, which I’m guessing you also knew, searching for that word on Google Groups is _very_ time consuming. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2007, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-snark/388270/10 "2007-01-17T05:09:44Z")
Patience, moi? I thought that’s what we had you for. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![rowrrbazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rowrrbazzle/32/414_2.png) [@rowrrbazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rowrrbazzle)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2007, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-snark/388270/11 "2007-01-17T22:09:22Z")
The earliest use of “snarky” on Usenet is only from 2004. [http://groups-beta.google.com/group/mtl.general/browse\_thread/thread/b00b4c1827a4615b/459c0abe6d4f8975?lnk=st&q=snarky&rnum=9004#459c0abe6d4f8975](http://groups-beta.google.com/group/mtl.general/browse_thread/thread/b00b4c1827a4615b/459c0abe6d4f8975?lnk=st&q=snarky&rnum=9004#459c0abe6d4f8975) ---
**Author:** ![Omphaloskeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bcef8e/32.png) [@Omphaloskeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omphaloskeptic)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2007, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-snark/388270/12 "2007-01-17T22:42:59Z")
[QUOTE=rowrrbazzle] The earliest use of “snarky” on Usenet is only from 2004. [http://groups-beta.google.com/group/mtl.general/browse\_thread/thread/b00b4c1827a4615b/459c0abe6d4f8975?lnk=st&q=snarky&rnum=9004#459c0abe6d4f8975](http://groups-beta.google.com/group/mtl.general/browse_thread/thread/b00b4c1827a4615b/459c0abe6d4f8975?lnk=st&q=snarky&rnum=9004#459c0abe6d4f8975) [/QUOTE] That’s just the earliest use Google returns with an unconstrained search. Google limits results to ~100 pages. Doing a date-constrained search returns many earlier hits; here are some going back to [1985](http://groups.google.com/groups?q=snarky&start=110&sa=N&scoring=d&num=10&hl=en&lr=&as_drrb=b&as_mind=1&as_minm=1&as_miny=1981&as_maxd=17&as_maxm=1&as_maxy=1995&safe=off&), before the Great Renaming. I’m not sure how complete Google’s archives are that far back; some early uses might be missing. I went hunting for snarks and found this one from [1993](http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.apple2/browse_thread/thread/28930a8d37783785/3237588981ee3311?lnk=st&q=snark&rnum=54&hl=en#3237588981ee3311) (bonus, it’s an Apple vs. PC flamewar!). **Exapno** , I’m not sure I understand the meaning shift you’re pointing out (not that I have any better resources than the OED to answer the question anyway…). The early definitions of “irritable, grumbling, nagging, fault-finding” seem pretty close to recent usages. Are you referring to a shift toward “sarcastic”? ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2007, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-snark/388270/13 "2007-01-17T23:23:32Z")
I think “sarcastic” is closer to the current usage. Just look at that 1993 cite you gave: > [@](#): > > Oh, come on! What I can’t believe it that you would lower yourself > (obviously, you’re a much more sophisticated and contempory than the > rest of these “peons” here in the Apple II arena \ Get outa here, dude. Go back to pc land. Enjoy your enlightenment; and > leave the choices to the individual. To each his own, the saying goes. “irritable, grumbling, nagging, fault-finding” doesn’t really cover the way it’s used either there or in the quotes I gave. Sarcastic is better, as it is for the 1980s quotes: > [@](#): > > \>\>Uh, yeah. Not to get snarky or anything, but many years ago > \>\>someone came up with this wonderful idea called a PASSWORD. > [@](#): > > but computer professionals might be unwilling to do > > # this because they are afraid to face the words obsolete, surplus, and > > # (gasp!) the dreaded vacuum tube. Sorry, I couldn’t resist a snarky remark. > [@](#): > > “cover up extramarital sex”, that’s an ineresting concept. I guess we should outlaw it instead then (oops, sorry, I’m getting snarky now…) It’s a special kind of put down sarcasm, mocking and belittling the other person. And that’s pretty much exactly what I was looking for. Thanks. So we can pin down the change from snarky to snark to sometime between 1988 and 1993. That’s a good day’s work. ---
**Author:** ![Omphaloskeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bcef8e/32.png) [@Omphaloskeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omphaloskeptic)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2007, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-snark/388270/14 "2007-01-18T00:24:04Z")
[QUOTE=Exapno Mapcase] So we can pin down the change from snarky to snark to sometime between 1988 and 1993. That’s a good day’s work. [/QUOTE] Where do you get 1988 from? I’d be surprised if it were that recent. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2007, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-snark/388270/15 "2007-01-18T03:43:40Z")
[QUOTE=Omphaloskeptic] Where do you get 1988 from? I’d be surprised if it were that recent. [/QUOTE] The search page that you linked to, labeled 1985, actually has hits ranging from 1985 to 1988. Technically, that search of Google groups runs through 1994, but all that says is that the term snarky never went away. We have a firm cite for snark for 1993. That could be the first. Or it started some place that Google groups doesn’t cache. But it’s a good indication of the approximate time that the switch was made if we can’t find a single cite there earlier than 1993. And late 80s, early 90s seems likely. If you think it was earlier, where do you suggest we look? ---
**Author:** ![zut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zut/32/2875_2.png) [@zut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zut)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2007, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-snark/388270/16 "2007-01-18T13:11:55Z")
[QUOTE=Omphaloskeptic] I went hunting for snarks and found this one from [1993](http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.apple2/browse_thread/thread/28930a8d37783785/3237588981ee3311?lnk=st&q=snark&rnum=54&hl=en#3237588981ee3311) (bonus, it’s an Apple vs. PC flamewar!). [/QUOTE] I’m not so sure about that–it seems like “snark” is occasionally used as a “laugh” sound effect. See, for instance, [here,](http://groups.google.com/group/rec.motorcycles/browse_thread/thread/4d8965f170cbe73b/06274c1f131b81d6?lnk=st&q=snark&rnum=33&hl=en#06274c1f131b81d6) which includes the immortal line “hee hee hee hee snark snark snark.” (Also, if you like, three slightly earlier “snark snarks”: [April 1993](http://groups.google.com/group/rec.arts.tv.soaps/browse_thread/thread/a2f209d4d86be784/3642d6cbf587caa6?lnk=st&q=%22snark+snark%22&rnum=48&hl=en#3642d6cbf587caa6), [May 1992](http://groups.google.com/group/aus.flame/browse_thread/thread/5fe0c07de002acf6/52bedfe72bbb3fde?lnk=st&q=%22snark+snark%22&rnum=50&hl=en#52bedfe72bbb3fde), and [August 1990](http://groups.google.com/group/alt.sex/browse_thread/thread/e2a936cea70a6d5b/9703c73e0662728c?lnk=st&q=%22snark+snark%22&rnum=51&hl=en#9703c73e0662728c), although I think these are all “laughs”). If you’re willing to accept “snark” in verb form, [here’s a slang usage guide](http://groups.google.com/group/rec.org.sca/browse_thread/thread/d79db0a2c4295064/b02c63405e29e04e?lnk=st&q=snark+snarky&rnum=14&hl=en#b02c63405e29e04e) from July 1994. For the noun form, here’s a definite useage from [May 1997,](http://groups.google.com/group/rec.aviation.student/browse_thread/thread/c9efef86e6b44268/ab93f4d1b0809f73?lnk=st&q=snark+snarky&rnum=52&hl=en#ab93f4d1b0809f73) one describing a _person_ who snarks from [October 1996](http://groups.google.com/group/alt.polyamory/browse_thread/thread/6651b5fe251ad312/9e3a54ab3749b135?lnk=st&q=snark+snarky&rnum=62&hl=en#9e3a54ab3749b135) and a possible reference from [June 1996](http://groups.google.com/group/bit.listserv.dorothyl/browse_thread/thread/3e0f78fdd877f443/1d18dad8fb5818ba?lnk=st&q=snark+snarky&rnum=66&hl=en#1d18dad8fb5818ba) ---
**Author:** ![Omphaloskeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bcef8e/32.png) [@Omphaloskeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omphaloskeptic)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2007, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-snark/388270/17 "2007-01-18T18:37:09Z")
[QUOTE=Exapno Mapcase] If you think it was earlier, where do you suggest we look? [/QUOTE] Good question. The Usenet archives are pretty unusual as a searchable, dated database of colloquialisms. But Usenet was pretty small in the early 80s, so it’s not such a good resource that far back. (Also, I suspect that the people who engage in OS flamewars are probably not following the leading edge of language change.) Some newspaper columns and books are written pretty colloquially. I tried an Amazon search-inside-books but didn’t find anything very early (but they have mostly scanned their newest books, so that’s not too surprising). I don’t know of any other online searchable book-text databases covering newer books. Does a NEXIS search find anything interesting? [QUOTE=zut] I’m not so sure about that–it seems like “snark” is occasionally used as a “laugh” sound effect. [/QUOTE] Good point. I hadn’t read it that way, but that is a reasonable interpretation. I like your finds better. They also are discussing the meaning of the word, maybe indicating that it’s a relatively new (or newly repopularized) usage. ---
**Author:** ![BrassyPhrase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ea666f/32.png) [@BrassyPhrase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrassyPhrase)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2007, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-snark/388270/18 "2007-01-19T03:17:36Z")
I can’t hear the word snark without thinking of the television show _Homicide: Life on the Street_ and this exchange \ Det. Mike Kellerman: You sure you want me with you? Det. Tim Bayliss: Yeah, sure, why not? Det. Mike Kellerman: I don’t know, uh, last time we worked together you were kind of snarky. Det. Tim Bayliss: Snarky? Det. Mike Kellerman: Yeah, snarky, you know, from the ancient Greek, meaning butt head. Hey–it even gives an etymology! Not sure off the top of my head what season that was, actually. Early nineties? It was a popular worg on a newsgroup I frequented about the show at that time. ---
**Author:** ![BrassyPhrase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ea666f/32.png) [@BrassyPhrase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrassyPhrase)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2007, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-snark/388270/19 "2007-01-19T03:18:41Z")
You know, or WORD. If you’re picky. Or snarky.