# Origin of term "joint" as a place? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 21, 2014, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-term-joint-as-a-place/681879 "2014-02-21T15:25:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-term-joint-as-a-place/681879/1 "2014-02-21T15:25:40Z")
It occurred to me that I have no idea how “joint” came to mean a place, usually a dive or second-rate bar or restaurant. The best I could find in a quick etymology run was that such places (like opium dens) used to be adjoined or joined to a main establishment. That doesn’t seem convincing. Any better Dope? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-term-joint-as-a-place/681879/2 "2014-02-21T15:46:52Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > It occurred to me that I have no idea how “joint” came to mean a place, usually a dive or second-rate bar or restaurant. The best I could find in a quick etymology run was that such places (like opium dens) used to be adjoined or joined to a main establishment. That doesn’t seem convincing. Here’s the [cite:](http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=joint) > [@](#): > > Slang meaning of “place, building, establishment” (especially one where persons meet for shady activities) first recorded 1877, American English, from an earlier Anglo-Irish sense (1821), perhaps on the notion of a side-room, one “joined” to a main room. The original U.S. sense was especially of "an opium-smoking den. Why doesn’t it seem convincing? [The Master said:](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/253/whats-the-origin-of-the-words-joint-roach-and-stoned) > [@](#): > > “Joint” seems to have come to its present meaning via a very circuitous route that started with the 19th-century American word “joinery,” which referred to a specific part of a building. By the early 1800s “joint” had become a building; in 1870 it was used for betting parlors, in 1890 for opium dens, and by 1920 it was an addict’s term for drug-related paraphernalia. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-term-joint-as-a-place/681879/3 "2014-02-21T15:51:50Z")
But even Cece is forced to fall back on “seems to.” I was hoping there was a cite or expert opinion that went past perhaps and seems-to. Good enough, I guess. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![vontsira](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/51bf81/32.png) [@vontsira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vontsira)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-term-joint-as-a-place/681879/4 "2014-02-21T20:27:17Z")
Department of facetious unhelpfulness: but I remember hearing from a performer at a folk-music club: “he probably learnt that at his mother’s knee, or some other low joint”. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-term-joint-as-a-place/681879/5 "2014-02-21T21:17:37Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > But even Cece is forced to fall back on “seems to.” I was hoping there was a cite or expert opinion that went past perhaps and seems-to. Not the case, unfortunately. And, the OED 1821 cite really doesn’t relate to the meaning we’re looking for. So, it’s chiefly US underworld slang originating in the second half of the 19th Century. ---
**Author:** ![Lucas\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lucas_jackson/32/303_2.png) [@Lucas\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lucas_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-term-joint-as-a-place/681879/6 "2014-02-21T21:34:57Z")
“I wish coke was still cola and a joint was a bad place to be”. ~Merle Haggard ---
**Author:** ![Isilder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/cc9497/32.png) [@Isilder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isilder)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2014, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-term-joint-as-a-place/681879/7 "2014-02-22T01:47:23Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > But even Cece is forced to fall back on “seems to.” But the joint was _definitely_ the added-on room … It _seems_ to come to mean " cannabis cigarette" due to that origin. ---
**Author:** ![usedtobe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@usedtobe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/usedtobe)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2014, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-term-joint-as-a-place/681879/8 "2014-02-22T02:06:03Z")
Does the expression “Juke Joint” add to, or derive from the use of “joint” to mean dive? ---
**Author:** ![Lukeinva](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lukeinva/32/17872_2.png) [@Lukeinva](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lukeinva)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2014, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-term-joint-as-a-place/681879/9 "2014-02-22T02:40:55Z")
"Of all the gin joints, in all the towns… " ---
**Author:** ![AppallingGael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9bd4f/32.png) [@AppallingGael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AppallingGael)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2014, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-term-joint-as-a-place/681879/10 "2014-02-22T06:04:18Z")
Also, why are Spike Lee movies “joints”? ---
**Author:** ![Accidental\_Martyr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ce7236/32.png) [@Accidental\_Martyr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Accidental_Martyr)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2014, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-term-joint-as-a-place/681879/11 "2014-02-22T07:14:04Z")
> [@AppallingGael](#): > > Also, why are Spike Lee movies “joints”? Rap/hip-hop songs are also sometimes called joints.