# Origin of "The" freeway in Southern California. **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 11, 2012, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-the-freeway-in-southern-california/612543 "2012-02-11T19:17:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2012, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-the-freeway-in-southern-california/612543/41 "2012-02-12T19:42:35Z")
> [@Snnipe\_70E](#): > > Nor Cal all my long life. > Highway 1 is always Highway 1. > The 85 or the 87. > The 101 has always been the 101. > 280 is 280, the 280, or Highway 280 same with 680. > The 17 or highway 17. after 1989 from highway 280 north it is the 880 just 880. > From Valley FAi south HIghway 17 is still The 17 or Highway 17. > The 205 has always been the 205 to me. > > The 5 or The I5. > > Been driving since about 1963. Yes. Actually Northern Cal residents do say “thu 101” The big difference is that Southern Ca dudes say “\*\*THEE \*\*101” In other words, up here there’s still often a small unstressed “the” in front of some freeway numbers. But in S CA it’s stressed and often pronounced with a hard 'e". ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2012, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-the-freeway-in-southern-california/612543/42 "2012-02-12T20:11:53Z")
> [@Snnipe\_70E](#): > > 17 use to run from Santa Cruz to the Bay Bridge. The Nimitz is that part of the freeway through Oakland and maybe a little futher. > > With the interstate highway systems part of 17 was remaned 880 from Oakland to Valley Fair in the 1970’s. 1. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2012, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-the-freeway-in-southern-california/612543/43 "2012-02-12T20:27:29Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Yes. Actually Northern Cal residents do say “thu 101” The big difference is that Southern Ca dudes say “\*\*THEE \*\*101” > > In other words, up here there’s still often a small unstressed “the” in front of some freeway numbers. But in S CA it’s stressed and often pronounced with a hard 'e". Funny–but seriously, for those from outside of the state you can listen to any of [these videos](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZLuPmEgkfo) posted when the 405 was closed, to hear actual [natural speech](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7R0NLzscqik&feature=related). Some newscasters in helicopters might over enunciate thinking it’s “more professional” to do so, but the average person has no reason to do that. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2012, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-the-freeway-in-southern-california/612543/44 "2012-02-12T20:47:55Z")
> [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > But you make up for it by not saying “the” before hospital. > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Ha! we confuse you further by only doing that half the time. There’s pretty much a firm rule for that usage though (which also applies to school, college, prison, church and probably some other institution-type places): If you’re an inmate/patient/recipient of services, you’re ‘in [hospital/whatever]’ If you’re visiting, working there, walking past, or an architect planning to build one, you’re doing it ‘in/at/to/etc **the** [hospital/whatever]’ ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2012, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-the-freeway-in-southern-california/612543/45 "2012-02-12T21:13:41Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > But in S CA it’s stressed and often pronounced with a hard 'e". I don’t think I’ve ever heard anyone use a long-e, unless the number starts with a vowel. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2012, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-the-freeway-in-southern-california/612543/46 "2012-02-12T21:24:02Z")
I’m from SE Ohio and highways/freeways were just bare numbers for most of us. Some I70s or I71s, but mostly just the number. Here in LA, it just sounds weird to me to use “the.” I don’t personally do it. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2012, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-the-freeway-in-southern-california/612543/47 "2012-02-12T21:41:05Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > I don’t think I’ve ever heard anyone use a long-e, unless the number starts with a vowel. Exactly, or when using the term “interstate” (“The Interstate Five transition to the one-oh-one.”) Otherwise, just listen to the videos which I posted above, when people say, for example, “The four-oh-five,” to hear the actual pronunciation. I lived in the Bay Area for six years, and never heard any real difference between northern and southern California freeway talk, except for certain idiosyncratic terms specific to certain roadways. ---
**Author:** ![Asimovian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asimovian/32/172_2.png) [@Asimovian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asimovian)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2012, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-the-freeway-in-southern-california/612543/48 "2012-02-12T21:53:11Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Here in LA, it just sounds weird to me to use “the.” I don’t personally do it. …yet. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2012, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-the-freeway-in-southern-california/612543/49 "2012-02-12T22:25:03Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > … “Highway 17” (or, later, “Old Highway 17”) south of Valley Fair referred to what is now called “South Bascom” or “Los Gatos Blvd.” 🆒 I have a tendency to write too quickly and introduce ambiguity, but the above seemed not altogether unclear. “What is now called South Bascom” seems, to me, to denote the road that is now called South Bascom. > [@Snnipe\_70E](#): > > Never heard 17 called “South Bascom” or “Los Gatos Blvd” that would confuse it with the existing South Bascom or Los Gatos Blvd. So you thought I didn’t know what “what is now called” means, and also thought that I thought the present _Freeway_ running from Los Gatos to San Jose was (or is) called “South Bascom.” :smack: OK. Got it. ---
**Author:** ![Snnipe\_70E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5a626/32.png) [@Snnipe\_70E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snnipe_70E)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2012, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-the-freeway-in-southern-california/612543/50 "2012-02-12T23:28:44Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > I have a tendency to write too quickly and introduce ambiguity, but the above seemed not altogether unclear. “What is now called South Bascom” seems, to me, to denote the road that is now called South Bascom. > > So you thought I didn’t know what “what is now called” means, and also thought that I thought the present _Freeway_ running from Los Gatos to San Jose was (or is) called “South Bascom.” :smack: > > OK. Got it. Ok I get what you are saying. Like what was the 101. or the El Camino Real, is now the Monterey Highway. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Room](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_room/32/5069_2.png) [@Little\_Room](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Room)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2012, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-the-freeway-in-southern-california/612543/51 "2012-02-13T05:58:28Z")
I have wondered before whether this is one of those things that will spread because of media exposure. (for the record, my area will say things like “I-24” or “24”; “I-69” or “69”, and “I-57” or “57”). If it has a non-numerical name, it has a definite article (“THE Western Kentucky Parkway”). However, people will call the place where you get license plates and drivers’ license renewals “the DMV”, even though, in Illinois and Kentucky, you go to the Secretary of State office or the County Clerk, respectively. That seems to be an example of media exposure. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2012, 7:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-the-freeway-in-southern-california/612543/52 "2012-02-13T07:30:32Z")
> [@Snnipe\_70E](#): > > 17 use to run from Santa Cruz to the Bay Bridge. The Nimitz is that part of the freeway through Oakland and maybe a little futher. It was “State Route 17” from Santa Cruz, through Oakland, Berkeley and Richmond, all the way over the Richmond/SanRafael Bridge to San Rafael. The part through Berkely was simultaneously I-80. ETA: Thus, Route 17 met U.S. 101 in two places: in Oakland, and again in San Rafael. That stretch from Berkeley to San Rafael is part of I-580 now. Here’s an interesting anomaly: If you drive through Berkeley on that stretch of road, you are simultaneously going east and west. In one direction (actually, you are going more-or-less north) is simultaneously I-80-east and I-580-west, and conversely going the other way. ---
**Author:** ![JpnDude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/838e76/32.png) [@JpnDude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JpnDude)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2012, 7:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-the-freeway-in-southern-california/612543/53 "2012-02-14T07:32:40Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > That stretch from Berkeley to San Rafael is part of I-580 now. Here’s an interesting anomaly: If you drive through Berkeley on that stretch of road, you are simultaneously going east and west. In one direction (actually, you are going more-or-less north) is simultaneously I-80-east and I-580-west, and conversely going the other way. And I used to live in the high-rise in Emeryville right next to this stretch of highway. What a mess of a junction. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2012, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-the-freeway-in-southern-california/612543/54 "2012-02-14T17:37:36Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > . . . If you drive through Berkeley on that stretch of road, you are simultaneously going east and west. In one direction (actually, you are going more-or-less north). . . Yeah… I always thought of it as the Bermuda Triangle of commuter consciousness. A good place to meditate, actually. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Bredin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/96bed5/32.png) [@John\_Bredin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Bredin)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2012, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-the-freeway-in-southern-california/612543/55 "2012-02-14T21:27:50Z")
To take this off in a different direction, metropolitan Chicago has expressways and tollways. Whence the Bishop Ford Freeway?! 😕:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![appleciders](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85f322/32.png) [@appleciders](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/appleciders)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2012, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-the-freeway-in-southern-california/612543/56 "2012-02-14T22:10:57Z")
I think it’s partly just that SoCal residents are so often talking about I-5. “Five” is so easy to say that it’s no big deal to tack an extra syllable on, but “Eighty-Seven” is already four syllables, so no one wants to make it longer. I know in Oregon it’s most common to refer to “I-Five,” but people are more likely to refer to “Eighty-Four” than “I-Eighty-Four”. ---
**Author:** ![aerodave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f08c70/32.png) [@aerodave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aerodave)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2012, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-the-freeway-in-southern-california/612543/57 "2012-02-14T22:44:31Z")
Just to add another regional data point: Here in Dayton, I-675 is one popular commuter highway. It is almost always referred to as “six seventy-five” in normal conversation and in traffic reports. If you were to say “I-675”, you might sound a little unnecessarily formal. If you were to say “the 675”, you’d sound completely out of place, and everyone would know you grew up in LA. The situation is the same with all of our Interstate, US, and state highways. Numbers only, nothing preceding them. If you said, “Take 35 to 75, then north to 70,” there’s no ambiguity…even though the first is a US highway and the latter two are Interstates. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2012, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-the-freeway-in-southern-california/612543/58 "2012-02-14T23:45:09Z")
> [@John\_Bredin](#): > > To take this off in a different direction, metropolitan Chicago has expressways and tollways. Whence the Bishop Ford Freeway?! 😕:rolleyes: Freeway in general as a term has two sources. One is simply that it was a free road as opposed to a toll road. Toll roads go back to colonial days. People used them because having any graded road that wasn’t a rutted mudway was worth paying for. In the 20th century, engineers started looking at ways to improve traffic flow, which from the beginning of the auto age was a bumper-to-bumper nightmare. The major source of congestion in any urban area were the stores and destinations and smaller streets along the sides of major roads. Cars entering and leaving them created slowdowns and jams. So urban streets were developed that had no turns off of them. > [@](#): > > American civic annual: Volume 5 > > books.google.comAmerican Civic Association - 1934 - Snippet view > NEW REGIONAL HIGHWAYS The TVA Freeway By EARLE S. DRAPER, Director Land Planning and Housing, Tennessee Valley Authority THE … It has been called a “freeway” because of its comparative freedom from interference by intersecting roads, … These were not interstates as we envision them today. Think more of parkways or boulevards, often with side roads for local traffic. The first sense of freeway came from popular usage, the second from technical manuals, but after a while the two merged. Today pretty much any term - freeway, highway, thruway, expressway - is used interchangeably in the U.S. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2012, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-the-freeway-in-southern-california/612543/59 "2012-02-15T00:18:11Z")
Years ago, when I lived in Houston, my apartment was right next to I-10. Now here in L.A., I live a few blocks from the 10. ---
**Author:** ![panamajack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/47e85d/32.png) [@panamajack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panamajack)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2012, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-the-freeway-in-southern-california/612543/60 "2012-02-15T00:47:51Z")
Does Illinois law actually define ‘freeway’ as a specific term? In California, it is: > [@](#): > > 1. “Freeway” is a highway in respect to which the owners of > abutting lands have no right or easement of access to or from their > abutting lands or in respect to which such owners have only limited > or restricted right or easement of access. In practical terms, this means no signals or stopping for cross streets, more or less. Signs that say “End Freeway” often indicate that cross streets may require you to stop ahead. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-the-freeway-in-southern-california/612543.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-the-freeway-in-southern-california/612543.md?page=4)