# Origin of "The" freeway in Southern California. **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 11, 2012, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-the-freeway-in-southern-california/612543 "2012-02-11T19:17:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Roadfood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9fc348/32.png) [@Roadfood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roadfood)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2012, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-the-freeway-in-southern-california/612543/61 "2012-02-15T00:52:34Z")
> [@Snnipe\_70E](#): > > Nor Cal all my long life. > Highway 1 is always Highway 1. > The 85 or the 87. > The 101 has always been the 101. > 280 is 280, the 280, or Highway 280 same with 680. > The 17 or highway 17. after 1989 from highway 280 north it is the 880 just 880. > From Valley FAi south HIghway 17 is still The 17 or Highway 17. > The 205 has always been the 205 to me. > > The 5 or The I5. > > Been driving since about 1963. I was born and raised in San Jose, been driving around here since about 1973. I’ve never heard anyone (up here, I mean) use “the” the way you do. If I was giving directions it would be something like, “Take 101 south to 280, don’t get off on 85 or 87 but go all the way to 17, then exit on Lark [Ave.], go right to Winchester to San Tomas . . .” Nothing ever gets a “the”. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2012, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-the-freeway-in-southern-california/612543/62 "2012-02-15T01:01:07Z")
> [@Roadfood](#): > > I was born and raised in San Jose, been driving around here since about 1973. I’ve never heard anyone (up here, I mean) use “the” the way you do. If I was giving directions it would be something like, “Take 101 south to 280, don’t get off on 85 or 87 but go all the way to 17, then exit on Lark [Ave.], go right to Winchester to San Tomas . . .” Nothing ever gets a “the”. You know, everyone up here says that they never put a “the”, but they do. It’s _much_ softer and less stressed, but I hear it a lot, even among dudes born here. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2012, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-the-freeway-in-southern-california/612543/63 "2012-02-15T03:48:50Z")
> [@Sunspace](#): > > And the usage is common in Southern Ontario as well, for freeways. We say “[Highway 401](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontario_Highway_401)” or “the 401”. We sometimes use names as well: “the McDonald-Cartier Freeway” or “the Highway of Heroes”. (All four of these refer to the same highway\*, though “the Highway of Heroes” refers only to the part of the 401 between Trenton and the 404, along which fallen soldiers are conveyed from Trenton air base to downtown Toronto.) > > Strangely, we don’t usually say “the \” for a highway which is not a primarily a freeway. > > [sub]\*A highway which I refer to as “the Evil Death Highway of Doom”, but that’s another issue.[/sub] Quebec anglos also do so: the 20, the 15, the 440, etc. (In our case it may be reinforced by French.) ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2012, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-the-freeway-in-southern-california/612543/64 "2012-02-15T04:10:24Z")
> [@JpnDude](#): > > And I used to live in the high-rise in Emeryville right next to this stretch of highway. What a mess of a junction. That junction was largely (totally?) rebuilt sometime in recent living memory (mid-1990’s or so?). So we don’t know how big of a mess you are talking about – the big mess it used to be, or the even bigger mess it is now? I remember when Emeryville was just one big auto junkyard that stretched from horizon to horizon. And on the shore-side of the freeway, there was that big mud-flat area where people used to sneak out and built those marvelous sculptures out of sticks and twigs they found laying around there. I haven’t seen that done for years and years. Must have something to so with this new high-security age we live in or something. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Downtown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Mr\_Downtown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Downtown)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2012, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-the-freeway-in-southern-california/612543/65 "2012-02-15T04:40:27Z")
Yes, Illinois law defines _freeway_ similarly, so that abutting property owners have no right of access to it. However, the Bishop Louis Henry Ford Freeway is a 1996 renaming of the Calumet Expressway, sponsored by folks who may not have made the most careful study of regional toponyms. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2012, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-the-freeway-in-southern-california/612543/66 "2012-02-15T23:01:02Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Alas, if that were only true. The SoCal “the” has been creeping into many NorCal folks that I know of late. > > And of course we don’t say I-880. It’s 17. 😃 Not at Mowry. We’re no hillbillies. 😃 The only time I hear anyone call it the Nimitz is when traffic reporters want to put some variety into their reports. I’m not sure I’ve ever heard a civilian call it that. BTW someone who wrote into Mr. Roadshow this morning mentioned “the 101” and was told that any time that usage slips in he gets nasty mail. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2012, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-the-freeway-in-southern-california/612543/67 "2012-02-16T00:02:03Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > . > > BTW someone who wrote into Mr. Roadshow this morning mentioned “the 101” and was told that any time that usage slips in he gets nasty mail. Yep, by elitist assholes, who likely actually do say “the 101” but are in denial. :rolleyes: But you are right in that no one calls it “the Nimitz”. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2012, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-the-freeway-in-southern-california/612543/68 "2012-02-16T00:20:16Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > Here’s an interesting anomaly: If you drive through Berkeley on that stretch of road, you are simultaneously going east and west. In one direction (actually, you are going more-or-less north) is simultaneously I-80-east and I-580-west, and conversely going the other way. About ten miles of interstate highway in the Great Valley of Virginia, from Grahams Forge to Wytheville, geographically almost exactly east-west, is simultaneously Interstate 81 south and Interstate 77 north (westbound), or of course the reverse if eastbound. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2012, 9:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-the-freeway-in-southern-california/612543/69 "2012-02-16T09:38:56Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > About ten miles of interstate highway in the Great Valley of Virginia, from Grahams Forge to Wytheville, geographically almost exactly east-west, is simultaneously Interstate 81 south and Interstate 77 north (westbound), or of course the reverse if eastbound. 81 and 77 are unusual numbers for Interstates. Is there a story behind that? Nearly all Interstates (with a few exceptions) have numbers ending in 0 or 5. And the three-digit ones are not unique – the same three-digit numbers may be re-used in different areas of the country. ---
**Author:** ![BMalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@BMalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMalion)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2012, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-the-freeway-in-southern-california/612543/70 "2012-02-16T11:42:46Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > Exactly…(If someone just told me to “take 5,” I would think they were talking about Dave Brubeck)… Very clever! I wonder if he was ever in L.A. and told to do so. I have lived in southern California and now reside in the midwest. My friends tease me mercilously for using the definate article. ---
**Author:** ![aerodave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f08c70/32.png) [@aerodave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aerodave)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2012, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-the-freeway-in-southern-california/612543/71 "2012-02-16T14:37:13Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > 81 and 77 are unusual numbers for Interstates. Is there a story behind that? Nearly all Interstates (with a few exceptions) have numbers ending in 0 or 5. And the three-digit ones are not unique – the same three-digit numbers may be re-used in different areas of the country. Here’s a [list](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Interstate_Highways) of all the 2-digit interstates. Interstates with 2-digit numbers that _don’t_ end in 0 or 5 outnumber the 0s and 5s by a 3-to-1 margin. (Could I have squeezed any more numbers into that sentence?). It’s clear that more of the non-0, non-5 interstates are in the east, but that’s because there are more small interstates east of the Mississippi in general. 0 and 5 interstates, nominally, go from coast to coast, or northern border to southern border, respectively.\* As such, they tend to be longer, higher-volume, more important roads. And in the less population-dense western part of the country, they tend to be the only ones needed. If you live in certain places out west, Interstates like 5, 15, and 10 may be the only 2-digit ones you encounter. And because of the way 3-digit routs are numbered, they will also end in 0 or 5 in those areas. (I’m looking at you, LA!) But around this part of the US, the spaces between the “big” roads like 75, 95, 80, 40, etc are filled with lots of shorter routes like 26, 79, 68, 71, and even 69. There is no shortage of non-0, non-5 roads. \*_Most of them don’t actually, either because parts of them have been transformed into another road, or because they never did in the first place. But that was the nominal goal when the Interstate Highway numbering system was devised._ ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2012, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-the-freeway-in-southern-california/612543/72 "2012-02-16T15:09:58Z")
> [@aerodave](#): > > It’s clear that more of the non-0, non-5 interstates are in the east, but that’s because there are more small interstates east of the Mississippi in general. 0 and 5 interstates, nominally, go from coast to coast, or northern border to southern border, respectively.\* As such, they tend to be longer, higher-volume, more important roads. And in the less population-dense western part of the country, they tend to be the only ones needed. If you live in certain places out west, Interstates like 5, 15, and 10 may be the only 2-digit ones you encounter. And because of the way 3-digit routs are numbered, they will also end in 0 or 5 in those areas. (I’m looking at you, LA!) North-South freeways have odd numbers that increase from West to East. East-West freeways have even numbers. A freeway whose number is divisible by five is a major route. Three-digit numbers indicate a ‘loop’ or an ‘offshoot’ from the main freeway. The number of the freeway it deviates from is indicated by the last two digits. If it is a ‘loop’, the first digit is even, and if it is an ‘offshoot’ (i.e., it does not rejoin the main freeway), the first digit is even. The 5 runs North and South. The 405 is a ‘loop’ of the 5 that runs North and South with ends at the 5 in the San Fernando Valley and Irvine (the El Toro Y), so it has an even first digit and ‘05’ indicates it is a ‘loop’ of the 5. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2012, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-the-freeway-in-southern-california/612543/73 "2012-02-16T16:55:09Z")
It’s name is so generic that it drove me (sorry) crazy trying to remember it, but I finally tracked it down. [The Big Roads: The Untold Story of the Engineers, Visionaries, and Trailblazers Who Created the American Superhighways, by Earl Swift](http://www.amazon.com/Big-Roads-Visionaries-Trailblazers-Superhighways/dp/0618812415/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1329409882&sr=8-1). It covers the creation of highways - roads that attempted to link major cities - which were first done by private interests. Almost all of these had names rather than numbers, the Lincoln Highway probably most famous. After a while the lack of standards and lack of money defeated them. (They marked the roads by nailing small signs onto telephone poles. Some poles had more than a dozen signs as roads overlapped. But they didn’t mark where to turn off to continue that road[!].) The the government took them over and there was a numbered system of highways decades before the Interstate. The numbers went the other way. Low east-west routes were in the north rather than the south. He also talks about the creation of freeways inside cities and the minimal access to turnoffs they were designed to force. If you want to know more about this process before the Interstates, this is a good place to start. Here’s a fun fact that almost nobody knows. An Interstate has to start and end at another Interstate. Up in Rochester, NY, I-590 is an Interstate only to the point it intersects I-490. North of that it’s New York State Route 590 (which goes past New York State Route 104 until Titus Ave. even though the freeway continues on: only the mostly nerdly cartographers can appreciate this) until it ends at Lake Ontario. Similarly, I-390 on the west side is an Interstate only up to I-490 and north of that it is New York State Route 390 until it hits the Lake Ontario State Parkway. Most out-of-towners are thrown by crossing I-490 since it looks like the expressway is going to end before they get where they want to go. Hawaii’s H-number Interstates are a Special Case. ---
**Author:** ![Roadfood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9fc348/32.png) [@Roadfood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roadfood)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2012, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-the-freeway-in-southern-california/612543/74 "2012-02-16T20:01:44Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > You know, everyone up here says that they never put a “the”, but they do. It’s _much_ softer and less stressed, but I hear it a lot, even among dudes born here. You can say that all you want, but I’ve never heard it, except from people who’ve spent time in Southern California, and I know for a fact that I never say it, not even a bit, not even to the inaudible level of Neil Armstrong’s supposed “a” before “man”. “You take 280 to 101”, that last runs together as “tuwonohwon”, there just isn’t any room or time for a softer “the” to be anywhere in there. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2012, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-the-freeway-in-southern-california/612543/75 "2012-02-16T20:47:02Z")
I have heard exactly that. I say = “You know, this radio dude sez it”-= “well, he worked in SoCal”. “OK, Bob sez it, and he’s lived up here for 20 years”= “Yeah but he was born in SoCal”. “Then how about Sally. she was born here?” “Sure but her husband lived in LA for a long time”. You know what we call this- “The No True Scotsman Fallacy”. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2012, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-the-freeway-in-southern-california/612543/76 "2012-02-16T20:57:13Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > I have heard exactly that. I say = “You know, this radio dude sez it”-= “well, he worked in SoCal”. “OK, Bob sez it, and he’s lived up here for 20 years”= “Yeah but he was born in SoCal”. “Then how about Sally. she was born here?” “Sure but her husband lived in LA for a long time”. > > You know what we call this- “The No True Scotsman Fallacy”. Having to drive on 880 twice a day, I am a devotee of KCBS traffic - and I have never heard them say the 101 or the 880 or the 80 or the 280. The Nimitz, yes - usually the Nasty Nimitz. And I don’t think I’ve heard anyone living up in Northern California using the. We have friends who live not far from 101 in LA, and they say “the” all the time. But I don’t mind, since you have to pity them living in a hellhole. They sent their kids up here for college at least. ---
**Author:** ![aerodave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f08c70/32.png) [@aerodave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aerodave)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2012, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-the-freeway-in-southern-california/612543/77 "2012-02-16T22:27:04Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Here’s a fun fact that almost nobody knows. An Interstate has to start and end at another Interstate. I have no doubt that was the intent of the system _as designed_, but in practice that’s not the case. The Atlantic coast is full of examples where interstates just terminate into other highways and even unnumbered surface streets. I-40 in Wilmington , I-26 in Charleston, and I-16 In Savannah all terminate in some sort of weird interaction with US 17. In Interstates 73 and 74 are ever finished, they’ll do the same thing with US 17 around Myrtle Beach. I-95 in Miami turns into US 1. It happens in other parts of the country, too. I-39 in Wisconsin just sort of gives up and fades into US 51. That one, though, could easily be a difference between the “as planned” route and the currently built route. And that’s just the two-digit highways. Three-digit Interstates routinely terminate at one end on a lesser grade road, but I imagine that’s not what you meant. ---
**Author:** ![Svejk\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea666f/32.png) [@Svejk\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Svejk_1)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2012, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-the-freeway-in-southern-california/612543/78 "2012-02-16T23:01:00Z")
> [@matt\_mcl](#): > > Quebec anglos also do so: the 20, the 15, the 440, etc. (In our case it may be reinforced by French.) thanks, I was starting to think that I had been doing it all wrong, but apparently I’ve been following common Montrealer usage here 🙂 FWIW, when I was in NYC a few days ago, I swear the hotel man asked us if we were taking “the 87” back up. ---
**Author:** ![zamboniracer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e9a140/32.png) [@zamboniracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zamboniracer)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2012, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-the-freeway-in-southern-california/612543/79 "2012-02-16T23:18:17Z")
> [@Gagundathar](#): > > Here in exurban Atlanta (and all over the metro region), we use the ‘I’ prefix with interstates and (usually) highway ## for state highways. There are some regional variations, especially if a well-known street became a highway e.g. Memorial Drive (which was the route from Decatur to the Confederate war memorial carved into the side of Stone Mountain). State highway 78 is usually called just ‘78’, but when you get into Athens, it becomes ‘The Atlanta Highway’ followed by 'West Broad Street" and then “Oconee Street”, “Oak Street” and then eventually “Lexington Road”. > > We do this to mess with the newbies. > > But the ‘the’ prefix is not used here at all with numbered roads. Yes, because naming the newbies were starting to catch on to the fact that every street in Atlanta is “Peachtree” something or other. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![panamajack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/47e85d/32.png) [@panamajack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panamajack)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2012, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-the-freeway-in-southern-california/612543/80 "2012-02-16T23:22:42Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > I have heard exactly that. I say = “You know, this radio dude sez it”-= “well, he worked in SoCal”. “OK, Bob sez it, and he’s lived up here for 20 years”= “Yeah but he was born in SoCal”. “Then how about Sally. she was born here?” “Sure but her husband lived in LA for a long time”. > > You know what we call this- “The No True Scotsman Fallacy”. If you define Scotsman to be someone who moved there from France, than French is indeed the national language of Scotland. Regardless of that, we have actual examples right here in this thread of natives who say it and hear others say it. But they are outnumbered by people who not only don’t say it, but have never heard any other native say it; some have never heard anyone use it. You seem to be implying that most of them are somehow self-deluded into thinking otherwise. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-the-freeway-in-southern-california/612543.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-the-freeway-in-southern-california/612543.md?page=5)