# Origin of 'The full nine yards' **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [January 11, 2013, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-the-full-nine-yards/646876 "2013-01-11T17:46:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2013, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-the-full-nine-yards/646876/21 "2013-01-12T23:15:50Z")
Furthermore, there are a dozen other claimed etymologies for the phrase. People are constantly starting threads (or, outside the SDMB, writing letters to magazines or making remarks in conversation or throw-away mentions in magazines or books) in which they claim that they know the real origin of the phrase. They claim that they have heard the origin that they think is true from someone who insisted that their story clearly predates any other possible etymology. So why should we believe your story instead of the other dozen stories which other people make about the origin of the phrase? Their evidence is just as good as yours. We obviously can’t believe you all. If you want to prove your claim, show us an appearance in print of the phrase which predates all other appearances and clearly refers to the origin that you claim. Otherwise what you’re asking us to do is believe you and not the other dozen groups of people with equally plausible origin stories. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2013, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-the-full-nine-yards/646876/22 "2013-01-13T01:09:54Z")
> [@theomacconnell](#): > > My grandmother got the phrase from her grandmother well before 1950 but I have no idea if she ever wrote it down to be read by future generations of doubters and ‘shite heids’ as she would describe Czarcasm and Samclem. What a rude grandmother. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2013, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-the-full-nine-yards/646876/23 "2013-01-13T01:25:25Z")
As a point of interest, I have a cite for “nine yards” referring to a shroud in 1958 - a story by Manly Wade Wellman called “Nine Yards of Other Cloth” ([Title: Nine Yards of Other Cloth](http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/title.cgi?41106)) (the title refers to a folk song about a shroud). I am not claiming that this proves the shroud origin story, but it is at least an early reference to that idea. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2013, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-the-full-nine-yards/646876/24 "2013-01-13T02:40:57Z")
> [@Andy\_L](#): > > As a point of interest, I have a cite for “nine yards” referring to a shroud in 1958 - a story by Manly Wade Wellman called “Nine Yards of Other Cloth” ([Title: Nine Yards of Other Cloth](http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/title.cgi?41106)) (the title refers to a folk song about a shroud). I am not claiming that this proves the shroud origin story, but it is at least an early reference to that idea. This is discussed in the book [Word Myths: Debunking Linguistic Urban Legends By David Wilton](http://books.google.com/books?id=X5LEWiomDiEC&pg=PT27&dq=%22nine+yards%22+shroud&hl=en&sa=X&ei=zRfyUP7nFZPh0wH1toGwBA&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAA). He calls it interesting and an area to look into but properly goes no farther. Using Google Books I can find other [earlier references](http://www.google.com/search?q=%22nine+yards%22+shroud&hl=en&sa=X&ei=VBjyUIqsK_Oy0AG814GgBw&ved=0CCgQpwUoBA&source=lnt&tbs=cdr%3A1%2Ccd_min%3A1%2F1%2F1900%2Ccd_max%3A12%2F31%2F1956&tbm=bks) to nine yards being the length of a shroud. > [@](#): > > A woman’s world tour in a motor - Page 55 > > Harriet White Fisher - 1911 > … bare-legged Egyptians, each wearing about his head nine yards of cheese- capping which I was afterward told was used for their shrouds when they are dead. Always in life they carry that muslin with them. Copied from My Diary Friday, Dec … > > Ontario history - Volumes 30-32 - Page 55 > > Ontario Historical Society - 1934 > Nine yards cotton shrouds at 2/6 One and one half yards ticking. Twenty-eight yards cotton cloth. Five yards scarlet cloth. Twenty-three yards cotton sheeting. One bag of shot. Four yards bombazette. Five and one half yards gray cloth. > > The Bahá’í world: a biennial international record - Volume 13 - Page 218 > > National Spiritual Assembly of the Bahá’ís of the United States and Canada - 1954 > … blessed Guardian was to be washed. She had already purchased nine yards of the heaviest and finest white silk available and nine yards of a slightly lighter weight for the first shroud, as well as towels and cloths and soap to wash the body. They are each from a different society, which you might interpret to indicate universality. However, there is exactly one reference to each society, meaning there is absolutely no indication that nine yards was indeed the right figure or a common figure or a generally known figure. Wellman wrote frequently about folklore and might easily have come across a reference and decided that it made for good poetic use. Of course I checked for shrouds of six yards, with no hits. But at [five yards](http://www.google.com/search?q=%22nine+yards%22+shroud&hl=en&sa=X&ei=VBjyUIqsK_Oy0AG814GgBw&ved=0CCgQpwUoBA&source=lnt&tbs=cdr%3A1%2Ccd_min%3A1%2F1%2F1900%2Ccd_max%3A12%2F31%2F1956&tbm=bks#hl=en&tbo=d&tbs=cdr:1%2Ccd_min%3A1%2F1%2F1900%2Ccd_max%3A12%2F31%2F1956&tbm=bks&sclient=psy-ab&q=%22five+yards%22+shroud&oq=%22five+yards%22+shroud&gs_l=serp.3...44694.47102.1.47804.7.7.0.0.0.0.155.660.5j2.7.0...0.0...1c.1.Fou6WRNSa98&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&bvm=bv.1357700187,d.dmQ&fp=c1caf535fbafeb42&biw=1173&bih=550) things got interesting. > [@](#): > > Dunster church and priory: ther history and architectural features - Page 148 > > Frederick Hancock - 1905 > … because she was buried in linen, and thus disbursed." Then follows a list of one hundred poor people who had each received sixpence. 1689. “A Sermon Markes Day 6J. id” 1 690. Five yards of stuff were required for a shroud at nd. = ^s. yd. > > Indiana magazine of history - Volume 52 - Page 147 > > Indiana University, Bloomington. Dept. of History, Indiana University. Dept. of History, Indiana Historical Society - 1956 > The number of deaths is also indicated: “five yards Cambrick for shroud,” or “six yards Cambk. for winding sheet,” or “mourning robe 4.25 for Margaret” (evidently a cerecloth or burial garment, not a mourning garment for the living). These items … > > The Ḍoms and their near relations - Page 341 > > George Weston Briggs - 1953 > The body is covered with a shroud, after being wrapped in cloth (Sansiyas use a new cloth five yards long), or having been dressed in everyday clothes. The covering is white for a man, red for a woman. Sometimes a special stamped cloth is … So, five yards for a shroud but six yards for a winding sheet. The whole six yards? Except that’s the only reference like that. My guess is a dead end. Seven and eight give nothing for shrouds. Ten is a nice one: > [@](#): > > Black and beautiful: a life in safari land - Page 31 > > Marius Fortie - 1938 > Another chief gave us a big steer for only eight yards of merikani and six sewing needles. While pitching camp in a village this side … He demanded ten yards of bafta, the finest cotton cloth, for a shroud. When a toll of fifty yards of merikani was … People who insist that the whole nine yards comes from a specific source are implicitly making the argument that the number nine was so associated with that source that everybody would understand the reference (at least initially, before it got absorbed in the wider language). Yet every one of their origins is either numerically wrong or obscure or not evident in any other look at that culture. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2013, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-the-full-nine-yards/646876/25 "2013-01-13T02:49:08Z")
I can sew and I am fat and I think nine yards, or ells, is a shitload (or “shite lod” to **theomacconnell** ’s grandmother) of fabric to use to make one lousy kilt, even with pleats and matching the tartan pattern. I thought the Scots were supposed to be frugal and wouldn’t waste fabric like that. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2013, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-the-full-nine-yards/646876/26 "2013-01-13T02:54:52Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > This is discussed in the book [Word Myths: Debunking Linguistic Urban Legends By David Wilton](http://books.google.com/books?id=X5LEWiomDiEC&pg=PT27&dq=%22nine+yards%22+shroud&hl=en&sa=X&ei=zRfyUP7nFZPh0wH1toGwBA&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAA). He calls it interesting and an area to look into but properly goes no farther. Thanks. > [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > People who insist that the whole nine yards comes from a specific source are implicitly making the argument that the number nine was so associated with that source that everybody would understand the reference (at least initially, before it got absorbed in the wider language). Yet every one of their origins is either numerically wrong or obscure or not evident in any other look at that culture. Agreed. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2013, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-the-full-nine-yards/646876/27 "2013-01-13T19:48:00Z")
> [@theomacconnell](#): > > What I’ve known my whole life is difficult to prove without contention and it’s frustrating to have to find an answer that will satisfy your oh so critical evaluation. That’s the way the game is played. It’s not enough to “know” that your grandpappy was in WWII and swears that the origin was ammo belts on a fighter plane, you have to actually have a cite. You’re welcome to remain convinced your own story is the truth to heaven, but you won’t convince others unless you actually have a cite. > [@](#): > > Maybe anything said will just be anecdotal to you but this is a fact of my upbringing. It’s just anecdotal to you, to. > [@](#): > > Fabric for a great kilt has always been four to five yards long by two yards in width. Merchants, a few of which were ready to short customers on total length had to be told ‘the full nine yards’ to know that nothing less would be tolerated by my thrifty ancestors. That doesn’t make any sense. You just said that the fabric was either 4 or 5 yards long. How does that lead to “the whole nine yards”? It doesn’t even lead to “the whole six yards”. > [@theomacconnell](#): > > Please forgive me for not being able to separate my feelings from my knowledge but what is asked for is definitive proof of something so basic to my family’s history that I never questioned it or even thought that anyone else would call me wrong for stating it. Sounds like a personal problem. ---
**Author:** ![theomacconnell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3ec8ea/32.png) [@theomacconnell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/theomacconnell)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2013, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-the-full-nine-yards/646876/28 "2013-01-13T20:35:19Z")
What more can I say? I cannot cite definitive reference and so must apologise for wasting your time with what amounts to a common rant. I also apologise to Samclem for use of invective on this thread. As to your claim that my gran was rude- you have no idea- she managed to raise 12 children and bury 3 husbands through a world war and a bad depression. Brutal honesty and blunt talk was always expected from her and she did not dissappoint, sir. To one and all, your words remind me of her somewhat. I cannot deny the facts of evidence with mere belief so… Sorry. Theo macConnell Jr. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2013, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-the-full-nine-yards/646876/29 "2013-01-13T20:46:35Z")
> [@](#): > > … four to five yards long by two yards in width > [@Irishman](#): > > That doesn’t make any sense. You just said that the fabric was either 4 or 5 yards long. How does that lead to “the whole nine yards”? It doesn’t even lead to “the whole six yards”. I think he means four and a half long by 2 wide = 9 square yards. (not that I believe the folk etymology) ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2013, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-the-full-nine-yards/646876/30 "2013-01-13T21:46:30Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > This is discussed in the book [Word Myths: Debunking Linguistic Urban Legends By David Wilton](http://books.google.com/books?id=X5LEWiomDiEC&pg=PT27&dq=%22nine+yards%22+shroud&hl=en&sa=X&ei=zRfyUP7nFZPh0wH1toGwBA&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAA). He calls it interesting and an area to look into but properly goes no farther. By the way, do you recommend this book? ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2013, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-the-full-nine-yards/646876/31 "2013-01-13T21:47:41Z")
> [@theomacconnell](#): > > What more can I say? I cannot cite definitive reference and so must apologise for wasting your time with what amounts to a common rant. … I cannot deny the facts of evidence with mere belief so… Sorry. Well said. ---
**Author:** ![Bookkeeper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bookkeeper/32/281_2.png) [@Bookkeeper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bookkeeper)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2013, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-the-full-nine-yards/646876/32 "2013-01-13T23:52:21Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > I can sew and I am fat and I think nine yards, or ells, is a shitload (or “shite lod” to **theomacconnell** ’s grandmother) of fabric to use to make one lousy kilt, even with pleats and matching the tartan pattern. I thought the Scots were supposed to be frugal and wouldn’t waste fabric like that. 😉 The original [great kilt](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_kilt) does take much more fabric than the tailored small kilt normally worn these days. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2013, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-the-full-nine-yards/646876/33 "2013-01-14T00:52:36Z")
Reading the wiki entry on the kilt (if it is to be believed) suggests that almost nothing the OP says about kilts is correct. The width he gives for a great kilt is wrong, the length he gives is wrong, and the story about English factory owners foisting the smaller kilt on the Scots is wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2013, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-the-full-nine-yards/646876/34 "2013-01-14T01:05:52Z")
> [@theomacconnell](#): > > What more can I say? I cannot cite definitive reference and so must apologise for wasting your time with what amounts to a common rant. I also apologise to Samclem for use of invective on this thread. As to your claim that my gran was rude- you have no idea- she managed to raise 12 children and bury 3 husbands through a world war and a bad depression. Brutal honesty and blunt talk was always expected from her and she did not dissappoint, sir. To one and all, your words remind me of her somewhat. I cannot deny the facts of evidence with mere belief so… Sorry. > > Theo macConnell Jr. Thank you. This is appreciated and well done. > [@Andy\_L](#): > > By the way, do you recommend this book? I found it in a Google Books search along the way to other things, so I can’t say any more. ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2013, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-the-full-nine-yards/646876/35 "2013-01-14T02:51:28Z")
The problem is that nine yards seems to be a bigger measurement than is given by anyone who isn’t discussing the idiom. Anyone who is discussing actual great kilts seems to quote six ells at the most, and Scottish ells, not English ells. _If_ someone were to start with six Scottish ells (222 Scottish inches) and incorrectly interpret it as six English ells (324 English inches), and then convert that to English yards, then you’d get nine yards, all right, but it would be flat wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2013, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-the-full-nine-yards/646876/36 "2013-01-14T03:25:26Z")
I’ve read _Word Myths_, although it’s been awhile now, and I remember liking it. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2013, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-the-full-nine-yards/646876/37 "2013-01-14T03:36:19Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > This is discussed in the book [Word Myths: Debunking Linguistic Urban Legends By David Wilton](http://books.google.com/books?id=X5LEWiomDiEC&pg=PT27&dq=%22nine+yards%22+shroud&hl=en&sa=X&ei=zRfyUP7nFZPh0wH1toGwBA&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAA). He calls it interesting and an area to look into but properly goes no farther. > [@Andy\_L](#): > > By the way, do you recommend this book? I highly recommend anything Dave Wilton wrote. Great linguist and writer. ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2013, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-the-full-nine-yards/646876/38 "2013-01-14T23:00:42Z")
And [here](http://www.npr.org/2013/01/14/169140590/-the-whole-nine-yards-of-what) is Geoff Nunberg’s view of the origins of this phrase. One interesting bit: [QUOTE=Geoff Nunberg] Word-sleuths traced the modern use of “the whole nine yards” as far back as a 1956 article in a magazine called Kentucky Happy Hunting Ground. Now they’ve discovered an even earlier version of the phrase, “the whole six yards,” which was used in the rural South as early as 1912. That’s still how the phrase goes in parts of the South, but it was inflated to “nine yards” when it caught on elsewhere, the same way the early 20th-century “cloud seven” was upgraded to our “cloud nine.” [/QUOTE] Roddy ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2013, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-the-full-nine-yards/646876/39 "2013-01-15T03:04:44Z")
Is it really true that people in the South still use “the whole six yards”? ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2013, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-the-full-nine-yards/646876/40 "2013-01-15T03:48:29Z")
Doubtful if it’s in regular use, but a Google Books search found: > [@](#): > > Elvis and Gladys - Page 93 > [books.google.com/books?isbn=1578066344](http://books.google.com/books?isbn=1578066344) > Elaine Dundy - 1985 - Preview - More editions > “We had them all,” says Charlie Boren, “the whole six yards.” Above all, for Elvis, there was Mississippi Slim. Charlie Boren now lives in Amory, Mississippi, where he runs a dry- goods store and still organizes screenings all over the state of old … And not just the south: > [@](#): > > Pennsylvania radio - Page 90 > [Pennsylvania Radio - Charles Archibald Moore - Google Books](http://books.google.com/books?id=y3zWAAAAMAAJ) > Charles Archibald Moore - 1991 - Snippet view > A young lady, beautiful young lady named Mrs. Wolfe and her young husband came in, in 1890 attire, the long skirt clear to the floor, the bonnet and the whole six yards. They were on a bicycle built for two. They rode the length of the high … That does indicate that the expression did not completely die out after the early century. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-the-full-nine-yards/646876.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-the-full-nine-yards/646876.md?page=3)