Origin of 'The full nine yards'

Furthermore, there are a dozen other claimed etymologies for the phrase. People are constantly starting threads (or, outside the SDMB, writing letters to magazines or making remarks in conversation or throw-away mentions in magazines or books) in which they claim that they know the real origin of the phrase. They claim that they have heard the origin that they think is true from someone who insisted that their story clearly predates any other possible etymology.

So why should we believe your story instead of the other dozen stories which other people make about the origin of the phrase? Their evidence is just as good as yours. We obviously can’t believe you all. If you want to prove your claim, show us an appearance in print of the phrase which predates all other appearances and clearly refers to the origin that you claim. Otherwise what you’re asking us to do is believe you and not the other dozen groups of people with equally plausible origin stories.

What a rude grandmother.

As a point of interest, I have a cite for “nine yards” referring to a shroud in 1958 - a story by Manly Wade Wellman called “Nine Yards of Other Cloth” (Title: Nine Yards of Other Cloth) (the title refers to a folk song about a shroud). I am not claiming that this proves the shroud origin story, but it is at least an early reference to that idea.

This is discussed in the book Word Myths: Debunking Linguistic Urban Legends By David Wilton. He calls it interesting and an area to look into but properly goes no farther.

Using Google Books I can find other earlier references to nine yards being the length of a shroud.

They are each from a different society, which you might interpret to indicate universality. However, there is exactly one reference to each society, meaning there is absolutely no indication that nine yards was indeed the right figure or a common figure or a generally known figure. Wellman wrote frequently about folklore and might easily have come across a reference and decided that it made for good poetic use.

Of course I checked for shrouds of six yards, with no hits. But at five yards things got interesting.

So, five yards for a shroud but six yards for a winding sheet. The whole six yards? Except that’s the only reference like that. My guess is a dead end.

Seven and eight give nothing for shrouds. Ten is a nice one:

People who insist that the whole nine yards comes from a specific source are implicitly making the argument that the number nine was so associated with that source that everybody would understand the reference (at least initially, before it got absorbed in the wider language). Yet every one of their origins is either numerically wrong or obscure or not evident in any other look at that culture.

I can sew and I am fat and I think nine yards, or ells, is a shitload (or “shite lod” to theomacconnell’s grandmother) of fabric to use to make one lousy kilt, even with pleats and matching the tartan pattern. I thought the Scots were supposed to be frugal and wouldn’t waste fabric like that. :wink:

Thanks.

Agreed.

That’s the way the game is played. It’s not enough to “know” that your grandpappy was in WWII and swears that the origin was ammo belts on a fighter plane, you have to actually have a cite. You’re welcome to remain convinced your own story is the truth to heaven, but you won’t convince others unless you actually have a cite.

It’s just anecdotal to you, to.

That doesn’t make any sense. You just said that the fabric was either 4 or 5 yards long. How does that lead to “the whole nine yards”? It doesn’t even lead to “the whole six yards”.

Sounds like a personal problem.

What more can I say? I cannot cite definitive reference and so must apologise for wasting your time with what amounts to a common rant. I also apologise to Samclem for use of invective on this thread. As to your claim that my gran was rude- you have no idea- she managed to raise 12 children and bury 3 husbands through a world war and a bad depression. Brutal honesty and blunt talk was always expected from her and she did not dissappoint, sir. To one and all, your words remind me of her somewhat. I cannot deny the facts of evidence with mere belief so… Sorry.

Theo macConnell Jr.

I think he means four and a half long by 2 wide = 9 square yards.

(not that I believe the folk etymology)

By the way, do you recommend this book?

Well said.

The original great kilt does take much more fabric than the tailored small kilt normally worn these days.

Reading the wiki entry on the kilt (if it is to be believed) suggests that almost nothing the OP says about kilts is correct. The width he gives for a great kilt is wrong, the length he gives is wrong, and the story about English factory owners foisting the smaller kilt on the Scots is wrong.

Thank you. This is appreciated and well done.

I found it in a Google Books search along the way to other things, so I can’t say any more.

The problem is that nine yards seems to be a bigger measurement than is given by anyone who isn’t discussing the idiom. Anyone who is discussing actual great kilts seems to quote six ells at the most, and Scottish ells, not English ells. If someone were to start with six Scottish ells (222 Scottish inches) and incorrectly interpret it as six English ells (324 English inches), and then convert that to English yards, then you’d get nine yards, all right, but it would be flat wrong.

I’ve read Word Myths, although it’s been awhile now, and I remember liking it.

I highly recommend anything Dave Wilton wrote. Great linguist and writer.

And here is Geoff Nunberg’s view of the origins of this phrase.

One interesting bit:

[QUOTE=Geoff Nunberg]
Word-sleuths traced the modern use of “the whole nine yards” as far back as a 1956 article in a magazine called Kentucky Happy Hunting Ground. Now they’ve discovered an even earlier version of the phrase, “the whole six yards,” which was used in the rural South as early as 1912. That’s still how the phrase goes in parts of the South, but it was inflated to “nine yards” when it caught on elsewhere, the same way the early 20th-century “cloud seven” was upgraded to our “cloud nine.”
[/QUOTE]

Roddy

Is it really true that people in the South still use “the whole six yards”?

Doubtful if it’s in regular use, but a Google Books search found:

And not just the south:

That does indicate that the expression did not completely die out after the early century.