# Origin of the term Going West **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 26, 2013, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-the-term-going-west/659396 "2013-05-26T12:38:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Hagen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/45deac/32.png) [@Hagen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hagen)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2013, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-the-term-going-west/659396/1 "2013-05-26T12:38:00Z")
Having read Biggles books as a kid I’ve always been familiar with the phrase as used to describe the death of a compatriot. I’ve always presumed it was symbolic of blighty being west if France and going west being synonymous with going home in a figurative sense. However, I just heard “the Derelict” and it includes the phrase “the rest gone West” implying an older origin, presumably related to the setting sun. When and how did the expression start. Kind regards Luke ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2013, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-the-term-going-west/659396/2 "2013-05-26T12:46:54Z")
Blighty (Britain) is not west of France, it is north, so that theory is baseless. (I know Americans are bad at geography, but really!) Yes, it is a reference to the setting Sun. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2013, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-the-term-going-west/659396/3 "2013-05-26T13:15:34Z")
> [@OED](#): > > a) orig. Sc. (fig.) To die. > The sense became widespread during the First World War (1914–18). The relationship between quot. a1532 and the later evidence has not been firmly established. > > [Apparently ultimately with reference to the west as the place of the setting sun and perhaps also to its identification (esp. in Celtic traditions) as the abode of the dead. The uses at Phrases 1b(b) probably show a further development of this sense. There is probably no foundation to the suggestion that either sense results from folk-etymological alteration of go whist in the following quotation (compare whist int.1; apparently here intended to convey sudden disappearance): > 1899 Overland Monthly Sept. 288/2 Fifteen men of a whole ship’s list..Dead and bedamned—and the rest gone whist! > ] > > a1532 in G. S. Stevenson Pieces from Makculloch & Gray MSS (1918) vi. 42 Women and mony wilsome wy as wynd or wattir ar gane west. > > 1833 Johnstone’s Edinb. Mag. Oct. 89/1 The Irish, and the Scottish Highlanders, always describe persons lately dead as having gone west. > 1914 Times 31 Dec. 4/2 Does any one know the origin or meaning of the soldiers’ curious phrase for death, ‘Going West’? > 1942 J. Masefield Land Workers 9 The oldest men still daily wore The smocks of centuries before, Each fairly needled on the chest By loving hands long since gone west. > 2008 Anchorage (Alaska) Daily News (Nexis) 17 June a9 Jack has ‘gone west’. He died peacefully in the loving arms of his son. More than you wanted to know. ---
**Author:** ![GreasyJack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/df705f/32.png) [@GreasyJack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreasyJack)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2013, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-the-term-going-west/659396/4 "2013-05-26T13:24:34Z")
> [@samclem](#): > > More than you wanted to know. That’s kind of weird that one of the citations in the OED entry appears to just be the newspaper obituary of some random dude who died in Alaska 5 years ago. It seems like you could practically fill a whole dictionary with weird euphemisms for “died” used in local newspaper obits. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2013, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-the-term-going-west/659396/5 "2013-05-26T13:42:05Z")
> [@GreasyJack](#): > > That’s kind of weird that one of the citations in the OED entry appears to just be the newspaper obituary of some random dude who died in Alaska 5 years ago. It seems like you could practically fill a whole dictionary with weird euphemisms for “died” used in local newspaper obits. OED has hundred of cites for things, but tends to use an example/century, or maybe 2-3. ---
**Author:** ![GreasyJack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/df705f/32.png) [@GreasyJack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreasyJack)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2013, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-the-term-going-west/659396/6 "2013-05-26T14:16:25Z")
> [@samclem](#): > > OED has hundred of cites for things, but tends to use an example/century, or maybe 2-3. Sure, but how did they decide to use an obituary in some obscure local newspaper? A local newspaper obit is usually reader-generated. They’re about one step up from classified ad! Glad to know when I go there’s a chance I might live on in posterity in the OED entry for “worm food,” assuming my wishes with regards to the wording of my obit are honored. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2013, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-the-term-going-west/659396/7 "2013-05-26T15:58:36Z")
> [@GreasyJack](#): > > Sure, but how did they decide to use an obituary in some obscure local newspaper? A local newspaper obit is usually reader-generated. They’re about one step up from classified ad! That kind of a usage makes the point more emphatically that the word or phrase has entered the common vocabulary. Back in the 19thC, the OED compilers used only “good” works rather than the vulgar tongue for citations. These days they have a much more expansive view of what the language is. Any word that is in common usage deserves a place. The definition of “common” is a bit subjective, but means something like five separate appearances of a particular meaning over a period of years. That keeps vogue words that are everywhere and then forgotten or coinages that never gain traction out, but includes a huge number of words that wouldn’t have made OED1. The use of a modern example shows that the term is still in use. If it _hadn’t_ appeared since just after WWI, that would also be interesting and some people would want to know it. So they try to add cites over the whole history, and from different levels of writing. ---
**Author:** ![Hagen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/45deac/32.png) [@Hagen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hagen)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2013, 7:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-the-term-going-west/659396/8 "2013-05-27T07:59:36Z")
Thanks a million for that. what was particularly interesting was the OED compilers’ criteria. Thanks. > [@njtt](#): > > Blighty (Britain) is not west of France, it is north, so that theory is baseless. (I know Americans are bad at geography, but really!) > > Yes, it is a reference to the setting Sun. I would have accepted north-west, but North is equally as incorrect, especially when you consider that Flanders (Belgium), the area probably most associated with the Brits in WW1 and the adjacent region of France is almost directly East of England. Then there are the allied lines to consider, time zones, longitude, etc. (I know the French are unhelpful and finicky, but really!) 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2013, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-the-term-going-west/659396/9 "2013-05-27T14:03:27Z")
“Westward Ho” has a large [disambiguation page at Wiki.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westward_Ho), meaning, many towns, films, plays, etc. with that name/expression. It’s odd that OED didn’t cite Shakespeare, _Twelfth Night._ I thought that Shakespeare usage is a given in OED cites. I _think_ it’s in _Twelfth Night_, after Olivia leaves Olivia’s castle the first time. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2013, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-the-term-going-west/659396/10 "2013-05-27T15:28:05Z")
> [@Hagen](#): > > Thanks a million for that. what was particularly interesting was the OED compilers’ criteria. Thanks. > > I would have accepted north-west, but North is equally as incorrect, especially when you consider that Flanders (Belgium), the area probably most associated with the Brits in WW1 and the adjacent region of France is almost directly East of England. Then there are the allied lines to consider, time zones, longitude, etc. (I know the French are unhelpful and finicky, but really!) > > 😉 Total bullshit. Have you ever looked at a map of the region, or a globe? First of all you said England is west of France. A small sliver of the southernmost edge of England is west of a tiny, north-easternnmost corner of France. Apart from that, all of England is north of almost all of France. Only a tiny bit of England, the far west of Cornwall, extends further west than France, and it is still well to the north of almost the whole of France. Apart from that tiny corner, every point in England is directly to the north of some part of France. England is unambiguously north, directly north, of France by any non-insane criterion. Flanders is Belgium, and, again, it is east of only a small part of southern England. Most of England is well to the north. Furthermore, although British troops in WWI did fight in Flanders, they also fought extensively on many other parts of the western front, far to the south and deep into France. The battle of the Somme, for instance, which entailed huge British losses, was well to the south of Flanders, and far to the south of any part of England. Your geography is simply wrong, and your history is very weak. No English soldier on the western front would have associated going home with traveling to the west, even in that tiny minority of cases where traveling westward from where they were posted would have brought them home. The idea is ludicrous and ignorant. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2013, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-the-term-going-west/659396/11 "2013-05-27T15:48:38Z")
Wow. You must’ve seriously loved National Geographic when you were a kid. 🙂 My first fascination with maps was from there, actually. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2013, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-the-term-going-west/659396/12 "2013-05-27T17:15:32Z")
> [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > Wow. You must’ve seriously loved National Geographic when you were a kid. 🙂 > > My first fascination with maps was from there, actually. No. It only takes a minimal knowledge of geography to know that England is north, not west, of France. To confirm the details, all it took was a glace at Google Earth with the grid lines turned on. ---
**Author:** ![Hagen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/45deac/32.png) [@Hagen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hagen)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2013, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-the-term-going-west/659396/13 "2013-05-28T13:40:20Z")
Wow, that went south fast didn’t it. Perhaps the Expression going south relates to leaving England for France? 😛 😉 My history is just great, but I do appreciate your concern. It moves me that you care so much about a stranger on the internet. And they say the French are obnoxious. You sir, are the exception. I’m sorry that my geography is not to your standards, but quite frankly it’s a tiny half-bankrupt country half the world away and half the size of my state. Who cares. However, since it is so important to you to argue this point instead of addressing the topic, I am quite happy to go into it if you like. > [@njtt](#): > > Total bullshit. Great way to start a post. Let’s take it from here. > [@](#): > > Have you ever looked at a map of the region, or a globe? I admit to having the briefest of glances at dover-dunkerque and dover-calais where it is indeed east/west before writing my post. Since this is the nearest point I took it as my reference. Its also an area of historic interest. > [@](#): > > First of all you said England is west of France. I did too. Sorry about that. The area that I was thinking of was indeed, but you are quite correct that with the exception of longitude, time-zones, certain parts of France and the nearest points between the two countries it is indeed north on average. I promise not to do it again. I guess I focused too much on the origins of the expression when asking my question. > [@](#): > > A small sliver of the southernmost edge of England is west of a tiny, north-easternnmost corner of France. Sorry did you say west? or was it north. cause now you’re confusing my American brain. Not that I am American, but I’m sure you’d like to try argue for that later. > [@](#): > > England is unambiguously north, directly north, of France by any non-insane criterion. I’d have to be insane to argue about this on the internet. But as above, thank you for correcting me in such a polite, friendly and helpful manner. I can’t imagine the effort it took from you. > [@](#): > > Flanders is Belgium Indeed, I pointed it out in my post. Guess it must have saved you the time of finding an atlas. And I also said the adjacent area of France (adjacent to Belgium for clarity). > [@](#): > > and, again, it is east of only a small part of southern England. So? that was enough to make you throw a tantrum? What are you 2? > [@](#): > > Although British troops in WWI did fight in Flanders, they also fought extensively on many other parts of the western front, far to the south and deep into France. And Gallipoli is in Turkey, which is most definitely East of England. They fought there too. I will concede that England might be north of Turkey too if pressed. > [@](#): > > The battle of the Somme, for instance, which entailed huge British losses, was well to the south of Flanders, and far to the south of any part of England. And Ypres in Belgium is to the East of England, where bodies would be shipped WEST when they died. Seriously to get this involved about a single line, when clearly many soldiers fought further east, towards an enemy residing in the east (that would be modern day Germany and Austria), that you can imagine that it could be quite easy for a person to associate East with Bad guys/Danger, and West with home. Especially when you consider that the lines ran roughly north-south, with the OP mentioning Biggles, a decidedly airborne hero, who would cross these lines daily. IE associating home with west and enemy with east. I’ll cover this in the next part. Interestingly, I would imagine soldiers fighting in Ypres being shipped south to get home via Calais or some similar port. > [@](#): > > Your geography is simply wrong Again, I’m profusely sorry for offending you so. I probably should have said home being west or something. I cannot see why this bothers you to the point of insult flinging. > [@](#): > > and your history is very weak. Well when you know as much about my history as I do about yours, then maybe. I cannot see a single point of my history being incorrect either, so, that being the case, if you think my history is a bit off it speaks volumes about your own. > [@](#): > > No English soldier on the western front would have associated going home with traveling to the west, even in that tiny minority of cases where traveling westward from where they were posted would have brought them home. And you accuse me of generalizing. Using the previously mentioned material as a guide I can certainly say that at least one Englishman associated home as being west. Maybe not England, but certainly a warm bed and a cup of tea. > [@](#): > > The idea is ludicrous and ignorant. So is starting an argument on the internet. Congratulations, you win. Here’s a cookie. Now, in the interest of fairness, had you merely pointed out my error, I’d have probably conceded, but you had to be such a tool about it. I guess I finally understand all the riots in England all the time. Very geographically minded folk. Guess they have to be with so little of it going around. 😉 Anyways jokes aside, I don’t see why this can’t be pleasant from here on out given that I’ve conceded your point. Or is there something else now? If not, any thoughts on the topic at hand? Or just anything interesting to add in general. I like my visits here to be pleasant enlightening and entertaining. Which makes me glad I met you. @ Leo Bloom Can you elaborate on the significance of the Shakespeare reference please? Does it refer to someone’s passing. Oh and I also had a blast looking at the maps. Especially of exotic sounding places like the far east etc. Now, living here a lot of those places are closer to me and I’ve made a good go of it knocking them off my bucket list, but somehow, despite how incredible it is to visit them, or how amazing the people, a lot of the romance is missing. Maybe I should have been born earlier. Or maybe it’s just that a lot of far Asia remind me of home too much to be as exotic as the Nat Geos made me feel as a kid. ---
**Author:** ![Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a587f6/32.png) [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freddy_the_Pig)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2013, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-the-term-going-west/659396/14 "2013-05-28T14:20:55Z")
It might be noted that while the OED above cites the earliest usage of the phrase _in English_, it has a much older provenance in other languages: > [@](#): > > Since Ausar (Osiris) died a mortal death and was resurrected as a god, it was believed that worshiping the sun might provide access to everlasting life. The rising and setting of the sun and stars were symbolic of resurrection and rebirth. Thus the deceased were transported to the west bank of the Nile, where the sun set–or “died”, where the cemeteries were situated, in the Kingdom of the Dead; the living resided in the East, where the sun rose. The western horizon was perceived as the border between the Underworld of the dead and the land of the living. The ancient Egyptians called cemeteries _khert neter_, translating into “beneath the god”, and dying was referred to as “going west”. [The Spirit of Ancient Egypt](http://books.google.com/books?id=QR-T557Pw3AC&pg=PA97&lpg=PA97&dq=%22going+west%22+Egypt&source=bl&ots=DEWKpKdzZO&sig=i8UUnRUeXZ7ad1jBeHRdW69_pDU&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ArukUYbqJYW3qAHG74DACw&ved=0CCoQ6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q=%22going%20west%22%20Egypt&f=false), by Ana Ruiz. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2013, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-the-term-going-west/659396/15 "2013-05-28T22:40:52Z")
> [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](#): > > It might be noted that while the OED above cites the earliest usage of the phrase _in English_, it has a much older provenance in other languages:[The Spirit of Ancient Egypt](http://books.google.com/books?id=QR-T557Pw3AC&pg=PA97&lpg=PA97&dq=%22going+west%22+Egypt&source=bl&ots=DEWKpKdzZO&sig=i8UUnRUeXZ7ad1jBeHRdW69_pDU&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ArukUYbqJYW3qAHG74DACw&ved=0CCoQ6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q=%22going%20west%22%20Egypt&f=false), by Ana Ruiz. Can you post a cite in Ancient Egyptian that uses the term “going West” to refer to someone dying? ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-the-term-going-west/659396/16 "2013-05-29T00:25:27Z")
I’m in a hurry now, but wanted to jot down… “Westward ho” has nothing to do with the concept of dying. At all. I added that, in retrospect, as a non-sequitur, without the wit to shout “hijack.” There are a couple of motifs in _Ulysses_ and the _Wake_ dealing with the West, as in setting sun direction, and death or inevitable failure. The Wake references I can’t think of off hand, but will un-tangle some and see what I/we can come up with…The West/death thing is worked by Joyce in some ancient Egyptian context, using a religious-preparation text from then. A ton of _Wake_ stuff weaves in Egyptian mythology.