# Origin of "Top o' the morning to you"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 31, 2009, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-top-o-the-morning-to-you/515880 "2009-10-31T20:43:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2009, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-top-o-the-morning-to-you/515880/1 "2009-10-31T20:43:04Z")
There are still some people who think this term is actually used in Ireland. Can this supposedly Irish greeting be traced by to a specific work of fiction, or other origin? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2009, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-top-o-the-morning-to-you/515880/2 "2009-10-31T22:33:08Z")
It’s in Robert Louis Stephenson’s “Treasure Island”, so the phrase dates back to at least the 1880s. > [@](#): > > “You, doctor! Top o’ the morning to you, sir!” cried Silver, broad awake and beaming with good nature in a moment. “Bright and early, to be sure; and it’s the early bird, as the saying goes, that gets the rations. George, shake up your timbers, son, and help Dr. Livesey over the ship’s side. All a-doin’ well, your patients was–all well and merry.” ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2009, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-top-o-the-morning-to-you/515880/3 "2009-10-31T22:44:44Z")
It’s also in the 1850s novel “The Adventures of Verdant Green” > [@](#): > > " The top o’ the morning to you, Giglamps! " he said, as he saluted his friend with a volley of smoke a salute similar as to > the smoke, but superior, in the absence of noise and slightness of expense, to that which would have greeted Mr. Verdant Green’s > approach had he been of the royal blood " here I am, sweating away, as usual, for that beastly examination." And also in the 1850s “Hutchings’ Illustrated California Magazine”, in a story told by an Irishman, in dialect: > [@](#): > > We all repeated the request that he would relate the story. After a bumper of aguardiente O’Blennis commenced : > > " Ye must know, thin, to commince at the beginning, that in the ould counthry, on Fair Days, the boys and girls gather into the town from all parts, to dhrink and enjoy themsilves. One Bridget O’Connor, whom I had some pretinsions to, was there, among the rest. I met her in the morning, and av coorse made my salutations to her. > > H ’ Top o’ the morning to you Miss Bridget,’ says I, ‘how do you find yourself this fine morning ?’ > > " ’ Very well Mistlier O’Blennis,’ says she, just as cowld as you plase, and turned around to Tim Donovan, and commenced talking very purtly to him. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2009, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-top-o-the-morning-to-you/515880/4 "2009-11-01T01:10:22Z")
Googlebooks has “Halloo! You toney,” cried one, “the top of the morning to you. Have you seen pass a tall chap, in a light blue coat, with striped trousers.” That’s from _Theodore Cyphon: or, The Benevolent Jew_, by George Walker, from 1796, page 21. Without reading the whole thing, I’m not sure, but the line seems to be spoken by a rough character from Essex (so: not Irish). ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2009, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-top-o-the-morning-to-you/515880/5 "2009-11-01T01:15:30Z")
Ha! I’ve scooped the OED (well, in the phrase’s use as a greeting). Their earliest is Walter Scott in 1815. [QUOTE=OED] 13. Of time: The earliest part of a period; the beginning. c1440 Pallad. on Husb. III. 1000 In thende of Octob’r, or in the toppe [orig. inicio] Of Novemb’r. 1669 WORLIDGE Syst. Agric. (1681) 98 A mellifluous Army of Bees, from the top of the morning, till the cool and dark evening. 1825 HONE Every-day Bk. I. 403/1 The dawn is awakened by a cry in the streets of ‘Hot-cross-buns; one-a-penny buns..!’ This proceeds from some little ‘peep-o’-day boy’, willing to take the ‘top of the morning’ before the rest of his compeers. 1. a. The best or choicest part; the cream, flower, pick. Now esp. in the top of the morning, as an Irish morning greeting (cf. 13). 1663 BP. PATRICK Parab. Pilgr. xiv. (1687) 96 A conjunction of the very top and flower of the mind with the beginning and original of all good. 1668 BP. HOPKINS Serm., Vanity (1685) 99 The soul, next to angels, is the very top and cream of the whole creation. 1757 W. THOMPSON R.N. Advoc. 44 Which their..Friends, the top of the Physical Faculty can verify. 1815 SCOTT Guy M. iv, The top of the morning to you, sir. 1843 LEVER J. Hinton lviii, Captain, my darling, the top of the morning to you! 1894 Westm. Gaz. 10 Apr. 2/3 A ‘top of the basket’ young lady, like Lady Anne, would have been married long before the curtain rises. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2009, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-top-o-the-morning-to-you/515880/6 "2009-11-01T02:36:47Z")
That’s interesting. I’m curious, was it ever actually current in any English-speaking vernacular? I know that old-style terms seem to last longer in Ireland but to the best of my knowledge that particular term was never used here but is all-but mandatory for foreign sterotyping of the Irish. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2009, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-top-o-the-morning-to-you/515880/7 "2009-11-01T04:05:31Z")
Well, remember that the people mostly responsible for caricaturing the Irish were the English (either as the stereotypers or as the audience for stage Irish shenanigans\*). Many of them only experienced the Irish as members of the servant class in London and other English cities, so servants’ slang or provincial expressions used among the servants might come across as typically Irish even if the Irish in Ireland had never used them. \*So to speak. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2009, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-top-o-the-morning-to-you/515880/8 "2009-11-01T07:03:01Z")
An Gadaí, according to the OED it was indeed an expression used in some English-speaking countries. Indeed, it implies that it was particularly frequently used in Ireland. It may have died out in Ireland (and everywhere else that it was used) long ago. The examples given in the OED are all from the nineteenth century, so perhaps it died out more than a hundred years ago. The fact that you’ve never heard it may mean that it’s no longer used (or is at least quite rare), but it doesn’t mean that it was never used. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2009, 8:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-top-o-the-morning-to-you/515880/9 "2009-11-01T08:26:56Z")
> [@An\_Gadai](#): > > That’s interesting. I’m curious, was it ever actually current in any English-speaking vernacular? > I know that old-style terms seem to last longer in Ireland but to the best of my knowledge that particular term was never used here but is all-but mandatory for foreign sterotyping of the Irish. I have heard more than one Irishman using it ironically. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2009, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-top-o-the-morning-to-you/515880/10 "2009-11-01T16:57:25Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > I have heard more than one Irishman using it ironically. But it is in the knowledge that no one says it unironically or at least haven’t within my lifetime or that of my parents. ---
**Author:** ![Xotan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/278dde/32.png) [@Xotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xotan)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2009, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-top-o-the-morning-to-you/515880/11 "2009-11-03T12:51:14Z")
> [@An\_Gadai](#): > > That’s interesting. I’m curious, was it ever actually current in any English-speaking vernacular? > I know that old-style terms seem to last longer in Ireland but to the best of my knowledge that particular term was never used here but is all-but mandatory for foreign sterotyping of the Irish. A Ghadaí, aontaím leat. I agree. It is not a term that is used in Ireland. I have always considered it a Hollywoodism - an Oirishism as spoken by that true Celt Bing O’Crosby playing Father O’ Whatsisname roles. About as echt as ersatz can be. And while I’m about it: May the road rise before you is a gross literal translation of an Irish language idiom. A better translation would be: may you have success on your journey. Who the hell wants an ever rising road. downhill is easier! ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2009, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-top-o-the-morning-to-you/515880/12 "2009-11-03T15:09:58Z")
Again, the OED says that it was once reasonably common in Ireland. It may indeed have died out over a hundred years ago there, but that doesn’t mean that it was never used there. It’s possible that it continued to be popular among Irish communities in the U.S. after it died out in Ireland itself. It doesn’t appear though that it was created by Hollywood. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2009, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-top-o-the-morning-to-you/515880/13 "2009-11-03T15:59:48Z")
> [@An\_Gadai](#): > > But it is in the knowledge that no one says it unironically or at least haven’t within my lifetime or that of my parents. I’ve never heard “top of the morning to you” but I did hear “to be sure” from a Cork woman a couple of weeks ago, and my ex father-in-law from Carlow did once say “begorrah” in earnest. It was in the context of examining a particularly overcooked piece of beef his wife served up to him for dinner: “Begorrah! Was it dead before you killed it?” [/hijack] ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2009, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-top-o-the-morning-to-you/515880/14 "2009-11-03T16:43:57Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > Again, the OED says that it was once reasonably common in Ireland. It may indeed have died out over a hundred years ago there, but that doesn’t mean that it was never used there. It’s possible that it continued to be popular among Irish communities in the U.S. after it died out in Ireland itself. It doesn’t appear though that it was created by Hollywood. I think you’re missing the point. The OED reports geographical context of usage, but it does not attempt to report dialect. Whether it was used in Ireland is a separate question from whether it was used in Irish English. That in turn is a separate question from why it is a stereotypically Irish expression. So the questions: 1. Where did the expression “top o’ the mornin’” come from? England. It is expressed even in Middle English. (Documented, solved.) 2. Was it ever used in Ireland? Yes. It was a reasonably common expression at one time in Ireland as well as England and presumably elsewhere. (Documented, solved.) 3. Why is it stereotypically Irish? No answer. **Dr. Drake** ’s hypothesis: Because the creators and promulgators of stereotypes are not terribly concerned with linguistic accuracy. An archaic or provincial expression was associated with the Irish in a music hall or mass-media context and the expression stuck. **Wendell Wagner** ’s hypothesis: The expression continued to be used among Irish immigrants, and the association with the Irish arose outside of Ireland. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2009, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-top-o-the-morning-to-you/515880/15 "2009-11-03T19:22:48Z")
Dr. Drake, thanks for that post, it really does help clear up what still remains to be answered and thanks to everyone else for your responses. Interestingly my American GF has noticed that a number of the terms I use in my particular flavour of Hiberno-English would be considered old-fashioned or archaic in the US. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2009, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-top-o-the-morning-to-you/515880/16 "2009-11-04T07:25:18Z")
> [@jjimm](#): > > I did hear “to be sure” from a Cork woman a couple of weeks ago I used to work with a Kildare woman who said “to be sure, to be sure” all the time. ---
**Author:** ![Si\_Amigo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/si_amigo/32/2877_2.png) [@Si\_Amigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Si_Amigo)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2009, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origin-of-top-o-the-morning-to-you/515880/17 "2009-11-04T17:53:17Z")
Everyone knows that “top o the morning to you” is commenly used only by the [little people](http://members.cox.net/bphowe2/legends.html). May the saints protect ye- An’ sorrow neglect ye, An’ bad luck to the one That doesn’t respect ye t’ all that belong to ye, An long life t’ yer honor- That’s the end of my song t’ ye!