# Original Sin and Final Judgment **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 12, 2014, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/original-sin-and-final-judgment/701137 "2014-10-12T20:13:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2014, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/original-sin-and-final-judgment/701137/21 "2014-10-23T17:09:17Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > As far as I’m concerned, if one entity is totally responsible for the creation of everything, and that same entity had total knowledge as to the outcome of its creation beforehand, then that entity is the one on trial. His plan was to allow man to have the freedom to choose. It’s that freedom to choose that he programmed into the equation. Did he have total knowledge? Not at all. He deliberately let the kids run contrary to his wishes if they choose to, knowing some would walk the line and others wouldn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2014, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/original-sin-and-final-judgment/701137/22 "2014-10-23T17:10:31Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > If God created \*perfect \*individuals, then there would be no need for an earthly portion of the plan. The fall and the salvation would have been unnecessary. God had to create imperfect man, and allow man to fail or pass on his own. Please reread what you just posted. Could it not also be read as “If God had gotten it right the first time, it wouldn’t need to be fixed” ? ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2014, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/original-sin-and-final-judgment/701137/23 "2014-10-23T17:12:31Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > His plan was to allow man to have the freedom to choose. It’s that freedom to choose that he programmed into the equation. Did he have total knowledge? Not at all. He deliberately let the kids run contrary to his wishes if they choose to, knowing some would walk the line and others wouldn’t. Free will on the part of others and omniscience aren’t opposed. Perhaps more to the point; if, rather than knowing that Persons A and B are going to commit terrible crimes while C-J never will, you instead set up a situation where you know that 20% of people will commit terrible crimes but not which, you’re still responsible in part for those crimes. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2014, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/original-sin-and-final-judgment/701137/24 "2014-10-23T17:25:12Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > He can’t be fruitful and multiply without Eve, and he can’t be with Eve (who is now homeless) unless he eats from the tree of knowledge. He could have always gone back to Lilith. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2014, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/original-sin-and-final-judgment/701137/25 "2014-10-23T18:09:51Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > He could have always gone back to Lilith. She didn’t make the Genesis cut. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2014, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/original-sin-and-final-judgment/701137/26 "2014-10-23T18:31:42Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > Free will on the part of others and omniscience aren’t opposed. > > Perhaps more to the point; if, rather than knowing that Persons A and B are going to commit terrible crimes while C-J never will, you instead set up a situation where you know that 20% of people will commit terrible crimes but not which, you’re still responsible in part for those crimes. Had there been prior knowledge of who would pass, and who would fail, there would haven been no need to create the earth, as those destine to pass would have been moved directly to their eternal reward. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2014, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/original-sin-and-final-judgment/701137/27 "2014-10-23T18:39:50Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > Had there been prior knowledge of who would pass, and who would fail, there would haven been no need to create the earth, as those destine to pass would have been moved directly to their eternal reward. If you know all things, then you know how someone will choose to act, even if it’s a free choice. It doesn’t even require perfect knowledge for some easy choices. Lack of knowledge about what choices will result from free will means no omniscience - perhaps that’s just what you’re saying here. But omniscience is the basis for perfect judgement. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2014, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/original-sin-and-final-judgment/701137/28 "2014-10-23T18:48:14Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Please reread what you just posted. Could it not also be read as “If God had gotten it right the first time, it wouldn’t need to be fixed” ? I’m not sure I understand what you mean by “it” in that sentence. What does that refer to? If you’re referring to the Garden of Eden fall, then I’d disagree as that fall was a necessary element of making man mortal, which leads to his being tested, which leads to potential salvation and immortality. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2014, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/original-sin-and-final-judgment/701137/29 "2014-10-23T18:56:45Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > If you know all things, then you know how someone will choose to act, even if it’s a free choice. It doesn’t even require perfect knowledge for some easy choices. Lack of knowledge about what choices will result from free will means no omniscience - perhaps that’s just what you’re saying here. But omniscience is the basis for perfect judgement. Knowing all things is one thing, but designing a plan that allows individuals to exercise free agency with respect to their activities is a necessary part. Did he know Joe would fail? If he did, why didn’t he just program Joe to follow along with his plan? Part of the plan was allowing everyone to exercise their freedom to choose which doors to open and which paths to travel. In other words, he left the responsibility for Joe making the grade totally up to Joe, albeit he provided every tool for Joe to see the light and get on board. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2014, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/original-sin-and-final-judgment/701137/30 "2014-10-23T18:57:37Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > I’m not sure I understand what you mean by “it” in that sentence. What does that refer to? > > If you’re referring to the Garden of Eden fall, then I’d disagree as that fall was a necessary element of making man mortal, which leads to his being tested, which leads to potential salvation and immortality. If he hadn’t put the tree there to test the innocent people that didn’t know the difference between right and wrong and had no experience whatsoever in resisting temptation from a serpent created by him that he _knew_ was going to try to tempt them, they wouldn’t need “saving” in the first place, would they? There was only one inevitable outcome to that scenario-Adam and Eve were played. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2014, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/original-sin-and-final-judgment/701137/31 "2014-10-23T19:14:06Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > If he hadn’t put the tree there to test the innocent people that didn’t know the difference between right and wrong and had no experience whatsoever in resisting temptation from a serpent created by him that he _knew_ was going to try to tempt them, they wouldn’t need “saving” in the first place, would they? There was only one inevitable outcome to that scenario-Adam and Eve were played. The plan knew that a fall to mortality was a necessary element. It’s that fall that brought up the OP’s question about original sin and the final judgment. As I said, man (Adam) was set up. He had two options, both would result in a fail. That alone speaks of God not knowing what Adam might actually do under the situation, and covering both options. Would they need saving in the first place if they were already immortal? In the garden, they were immortal, albeit untested. If the plan was to test mankind, then the garden wasn’t going to to provide the mortal environment necessary for doing that. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2014, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/original-sin-and-final-judgment/701137/32 "2014-10-23T19:19:11Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > Knowing all things is one thing, but designing a plan that allows individuals to exercise free agency with respect to their activities is a necessary part. Did he know Joe would fail? Yes, if he’s omniscient. Knowing all things and allowing free will aren’t opposing factors. Knowing what choices will be made is a result of knowing what factors are involved; look at polling, for example. Polling isn’t perfect, but those who do well do well because they know what factors have an effect on what they’re polling for and what don’t, and to what extent. An inability to know how someone is going to react to certain situations is an inability to understand not just that person, but the building blocks of decision-making in humans. If God (or a person, for that matter) don’t know whether Joe will murder someone, that’s the same as saying that they cannot comprehend the factors that go into murder, or Joe, or both. > [@](#): > > If he did, why didn’t he just program Joe to follow along with his plan? He did. Omniscience means even as he’s, to coin a very figurative phrase, adding the missing ingredient to the primordial soup, he knows exactly what every and any result of that will be, including the choices made by free will. It’s his selection; his programming. > [@](#): > > Part of the plan was allowing everyone to exercise their freedom to choose which doors to open and which paths to travel. In other words, he left the responsibility for Joe making the grade totally up to Joe, albeit he provided every tool for Joe to see the light and get on board. That makes no sense. If he _does not know_ what Joe will do, how does he know that he has provided the means for Joe to choose otherwise? He doesn’t know what the choice will be; he doesn’t know what goes into making that choice because of that; so on what basis can he know that his provisions (which, as another matter, cannot be made at all with the aid of other humans due to free will, so God’s provisions can have zero interactions with human choice) will allow other options? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2014, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/original-sin-and-final-judgment/701137/33 "2014-10-23T19:31:10Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > The plan knew that a fall to mortality was a necessary element. It’s that fall that brought up the OP’s question about original sin and the final judgment. As I said, man (Adam) was set up. He had two options, both would result in a fail. That alone speaks of God not knowing what Adam might actually do under the situation, and covering both options. > > Would they need saving in the first place if they were already immortal? In the garden, they were immortal, albeit untested. If the plan was to test mankind, then the garden wasn’t going to to provide the mortal environment necessary for doing that. In the beginning, Man in the Garden was innocent and immortal. This dis pleased God, so God set up booby-traps for Man until Man eventually fell for one, at which time God popped up and said “Look at what _you_ did! Now I(the all-powerful being that set up the situation you find yourself in) have no choice but to punish you. _BUT_(coincidence of coincidences) I just happen to have here a long-range plan to save your sorry ass and _eventually_ get you back your health and immortality! Aren’t I just the shits?” ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2014, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/original-sin-and-final-judgment/701137/34 "2014-10-23T19:32:11Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > Yes, if he’s omniscient. Knowing all things and allowing free will aren’t opposing factors. Knowing what choices will be made is a result of knowing what factors are involved; look at polling, for example. Polling isn’t perfect, but those who do well do well because they know what factors have an effect on what they’re polling for and what don’t, and to what extent. An inability to know how someone is going to react to certain situations is an inability to understand not just that person, but the building blocks of decision-making in humans. If God (or a person, for that matter) don’t know whether Joe will murder someone, that’s the same as saying that they cannot comprehend the factors that go into murder, or Joe, or both. He did. Omniscience means even as he’s, to coin a very figurative phrase, adding the missing ingredient to the primordial soup, he knows exactly what every and any result of that will be, including the choices made by free will. It’s his selection; his programming. That makes no sense. If he _does not know_ what Joe will do, how does he know that he has provided the means for Joe to choose otherwise? He doesn’t know what the choice will be; he doesn’t know what goes into making that choice because of that; so on what basis can he know that his provisions (which, as another matter, cannot be made at all with the aid of other humans due to free will, so God’s provisions can have zero interactions with human choice) will allow other options? Now, we’re getting to a different part of the plan. In Christianity, God sent Jesus to the world to provide an avenue for those (Joe) who otherwise missed the boat. He made it quite simple for them to regain their salvation by simply accepting Jesus. I really don’t have the energy to want to go into the Jesus thing, other than just mentioning that it too, was part of the plan. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2014, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/original-sin-and-final-judgment/701137/35 "2014-10-23T19:39:36Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > Now, we’re getting to a different part of the plan. In Christianity, God sent Jesus to the world to provide an avenue for those (Joe) who otherwise missed the boat. He made it quite simple for them to regain their salvation by simply accepting Jesus. I really don’t have the energy to want to go into the Jesus thing, other than just mentioning that it too, was part of the plan. Great, except that whether or not someone will accept Jesus is part of free will, too, which means it’s also outside of this theoretical non-omniscient God’s abilty to know as well. If he doesn’t know the results of all our decision, he can’t know that Jesus being sent covers all those who should be covered. And you still have all those people who lived and died before Jesus was sent to work with. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2014, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/original-sin-and-final-judgment/701137/36 "2014-10-23T19:42:43Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > In the beginning, Man in the Garden was innocent and immortal. This dis pleased God, so God set up booby-traps for Man until Man eventually fell for one, at which time God popped up and said “Look at what _you_ did! Now I(the all-powerful being that set up the situation you find yourself in) have no choice but to punish you. _BUT_(coincidence of coincidences) I just happen to have here a long-range plan to save your sorry ass and _eventually_ get you back your health and immortality! Aren’t I just the shits?” Was falling from immortality to mortality a punishment? Immortal man, as he was in the garden, would have never had one of the necessary elements for eternal life, a physical body. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2014, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/original-sin-and-final-judgment/701137/37 "2014-10-23T19:45:29Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > Was falling from immortality to mortality a punishment? Immortal man, as he was in the garden, would have never had one of the necessary elements for eternal life, a physical body. Why not? edited to add: If he didn’t have a physical body, how did he eat the fruit? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2014, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/original-sin-and-final-judgment/701137/38 "2014-10-23T19:46:57Z")
Personally, I find original sin to be a big scam, like cootie insurance. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2014, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/original-sin-and-final-judgment/701137/39 "2014-10-23T19:49:44Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > … > > And you still have all those people who lived and died before Jesus was sent to work with. Very true, same with those people who live in some remote forest and worship the snake god all their life, never seeing a missionary or hearing of other countries or peoples. Those people are judged (final judgment) by what they knew and what they did with that knowledge. Those jungle tribesmen are not held to the same standard others are held to, anymore than we’re held to the same standard the Pope might be held to. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2014, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/original-sin-and-final-judgment/701137/40 "2014-10-23T19:49:45Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > Was falling from immortality to mortality a punishment? Yes, “falling” is a punishment, not a lateral move or a promotion. You can’t religiously doublespeak that one, sorry. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/original-sin-and-final-judgment/701137.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/original-sin-and-final-judgment/701137.md?page=3)