# Origins of "A Dragon Sleeping on a Dragon's Hoard" **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 13, 2011, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origins-of-a-dragon-sleeping-on-a-dragons-hoard/571210 "2011-02-13T13:26:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2011, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origins-of-a-dragon-sleeping-on-a-dragons-hoard/571210/1 "2011-02-13T13:26:54Z")
You know, the iconic scene and picture from the Hobbit of Smaug sleeping on his bed of gold and jewels? All I can think of is Fafnir guarding his own hoard. Was there any references to this idea before Fafnir? Was it ever said that Fafnir slept on his hoard or did he just guard it? ---
**Author:** ![chrisk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@chrisk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chrisk)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2011, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origins-of-a-dragon-sleeping-on-a-dragons-hoard/571210/2 "2011-02-13T13:32:30Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > You know, the iconic scene and picture from the Hobbit of Smaug sleeping on his bed of gold and jewels? > > All I can think of is Fafnir guarding his own hoard. Was there any references to this idea before Fafnir? Was it ever said that Fafnir slept on his hoard or did he just guard it? WAG here, but I think it would be pretty clear to whoever originated those old stories that most creatures have to sleep at some point, including reptiles of most descriptions. If a solitary dragon has to guard its hoard, and it has to sleep, where else is it going to sleep? 😉 It’s a natural progression. Sorry that I can’t come up with a specific example. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2011, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origins-of-a-dragon-sleeping-on-a-dragons-hoard/571210/3 "2011-02-13T14:10:50Z")
The dragon in Beowulf has a horde. There the horde is a stash from some forgotten race, and the text makes it seem like dragons just have a natural inclination to find and guard such stashes. Flipping through the text, I don’t see any mention that he explicitly slept on the horde though ---
**Author:** ![Gil-Martin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Gil-Martin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gil-Martin)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2011, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origins-of-a-dragon-sleeping-on-a-dragons-hoard/571210/4 "2011-02-13T20:14:04Z")
Man, I miss EEBO and some of the other literature databases I had access to in college. I imagine typing in the words dragon and gold would produce a great number of stories containing dragons on heaps of gold in a matter of seconds . . . but alas, I can no longer put this to the test. â˜č I do know that Beowulf’s playmate wasn’t the only European dragon who horded treasure. Big scary monsters guarding precious somethings and others abound in the world’s art and literature, though I’m having trouble coming up with examples of medieval European style dragons sleeping on piles of gold. A wikipedia search, however, yields [CuĂ©lebre](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cu%C3%A9lebre), a creature that seems likely to have had such habits. Also, I know the ancient Greeks had dragons–or at least dragon-like creatures–protecting such treasures as golden apples and the golden fleece. Not the same thing, exactly, but at least similar. I guess dracology isn’t my strong suit, but I think I’ll keep looking for the answer to this. Somehow I know the image in question derives from more than just _Beowulf_, _The Hobbit_, and a couple old Dungeons and Dragons game books. Now I guess I’ll have to spend my afternoon reading up on dragons instead of cleaning out the station wagon. Man, will my wife be pissed. Thanks a lot, guys. :mad: ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2011, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origins-of-a-dragon-sleeping-on-a-dragons-hoard/571210/5 "2011-02-13T23:18:09Z")
> [@Gil-Martin](#): > > M > Now I guess I’ll have to spend my afternoon reading up on dragons instead of cleaning out the station wagon. Man, will my wife be pissed. Thanks a lot, guys. :mad: You need a [dragon in your garage,](http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/Dragon.htm) like Carl Sagan. Put him to work. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2011, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origins-of-a-dragon-sleeping-on-a-dragons-hoard/571210/6 "2011-02-14T02:49:14Z")
In [_The Flight of Dragons,_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_of_dragons) Peter Dickinson speculates that a dragon was a living lighter-than-airship with a body cavity filled with hydrogen by some unique biochemical processes – processes which produced waste-products that tended to dissolve anything a dragon slept/nested on that was not stone or metallic. So, a dragon would instinctively collect such things and there might be precious stones or metals among them. ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/le_ministre_de_l_au-dela/32/12181_2.png) [@Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Ministre_de_l_au-dela)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2011, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origins-of-a-dragon-sleeping-on-a-dragons-hoard/571210/7 "2011-02-14T06:03:58Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > Was it ever said that Fafnir slept on his hoard or did he just guard it? Yes, he slept on his hoard. From ‘Siegfried’ by Richard Wagner. Act II, scene 1 > [@](#): > > WANDERER (Wotan in disguise) > A hero is approaching > to rescue the treasure; > two Niblungs crave for the gold; > Fafner, who guards the ring, > falls: > he who seizes it has won it. > Would you know more? > There lies the dragon. > > If you warn him of death > perhaps he’ll be willing to give up his toy. > I myself will wake him for you. > > Fafner, Fafner, > dragon, waken! > > ALBERICH > What is the madman about? > Would he really let me have it? > > FAFNER > > Who disturbs me from my sleep? > > (skipping a bit - Wotan warns Fafner that Siegfried is coming to kill him; Fafner is unafraid.) > > FAFNER’S VOICE > > Here I lie and here I hold; > > let me sleep! ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2011, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origins-of-a-dragon-sleeping-on-a-dragons-hoard/571210/8 "2011-02-14T13:41:38Z")
That’s excellent **Le Ministre de l’au-delà** though it does not specifically say he slept on his golden treasure even there. **Gil-Martin** , I thought about the Greek Dragons and Great Serpents and none of them seem to fit the idea though I wondered if there were any pieces of classical art that depicted a dragon in such a pose. I was rereading the Hobbit and got to thinking this might be another standard Fantasy trope that Tolkien created, he at least made it popular I know. But then I figured something must predate it in old legends or the colored Fairy Tale books. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2011, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origins-of-a-dragon-sleeping-on-a-dragons-hoard/571210/9 "2011-02-14T14:18:02Z")
Tolkien , although he denied it, pretty clearly got Smaug and his hoard from _Beowulf_. Tolkien was a professor of Anglo Saxon and wrote a book called _Beowulf and the Critics_, fer cryin’ out loud. In that poem, the dragon sleeps on a pile of treasure and is disturbed from his sleep by a thief who steals a two-handled cup, which rouses him to a murderous rage and leads to him pillaging the countryside (so that Beowulf is called in). But Tolkien never took any of _that_ for _The Hobbit_. Nope. Not a chance. AFAIK, that’s the earliest appearance of the Dragon Guarding the Hoard of Gold in literature. All other cases, although they may come from earlier sources, are dated after Beowulf. There were cases of Guardians of other individual things earlier – there’s a great serpent guarding the Golden Fleece in the legend of Jason, for instance. But it’s not a hoard. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2011, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origins-of-a-dragon-sleeping-on-a-dragons-hoard/571210/10 "2011-02-14T14:24:52Z")
> [@Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](#): > > Yes, he slept on his hoard. > > From ‘Siegfried’ by Richard Wagner. > > Act II, scene 1 “Aaaalberich! Remember him?” Anna Russell seriously ruined Wagner for me. In the funniest possible way, but still
 ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2011, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origins-of-a-dragon-sleeping-on-a-dragons-hoard/571210/11 "2011-02-14T14:40:00Z")
Tolkein’s friend C.S. Lewis also used the image in _Voyage of the Dawn Treader_ when Eustace, having turned into a dragon in his sleep, wakes up in the dragon’s cave atop a pile of treasure. This was published 15 years after _The Hobbit_, and the authors were close friends, so Lewis was probably influenced by both _Beowulf_ (he was a Classics professor after all) and his friend’s imagery in _The Hobbit_. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2011, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origins-of-a-dragon-sleeping-on-a-dragons-hoard/571210/12 "2011-02-14T14:43:54Z")
Tolkien and Lewis were both members of a group called _The Inklings_, and knew and read each others’ work in manuscript. Tolkien probably knew about Lewis’ use of the trope while he was writing it. > **[The Inklings](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inklings)** > > The Inklings were an informal literary discussion group associated with J. R. R. Tolkien and C. S. Lewis at the University of Oxford for nearly two decades between the early 1930s and late 1949. The Inklings were literary enthusiasts who praised the value of narrative in fiction and encouraged the writing of fantasy. The best-known, apart from Tolkien and Lewis, were Charles Williams, and (although a Londoner) Owen Barfield. > The more regular members of the Inklings, many of them academics at... ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2011, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origins-of-a-dragon-sleeping-on-a-dragons-hoard/571210/13 "2011-02-14T16:31:19Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > Tolkien , although he denied it, pretty clearly got Smaug and his hoard from _Beowulf_. Tolkien was a professor of Anglo Saxon and wrote a book called _Beowulf and the Critics_, fer cryin’ out loud. In that poem, the dragon sleeps on a pile of treasure and is disturbed from his sleep by a thief who steals a two-handled cup, which rouses him to a murderous rage and leads to him pillaging the countryside (so that Beowulf is called in). But Tolkien never took any of _that_ for _The Hobbit_. Nope. Not a chance. Does Beowulf’s dragon explicitly sleep on top of his horde? I flipped through my copy and while the dragon was obviously sleeping nearby, my translation didn’t mention anything that made it clear he was sleeping _on_ the treasure Smaug style. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2011, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origins-of-a-dragon-sleeping-on-a-dragons-hoard/571210/14 "2011-02-14T17:38:14Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > Tolkien probably knew about Lewis’ use of the trope while he was writing it. > > [Inklings - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inklings) It was undoubtedly the other way around. _The Hobbit_ was published in 1937 and _Dawn Treader_ was not published until 1952. It was the second sequel to _The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe_ which itself wasn’t published until 1950. There’s no way that Tolkien could have been influenced by Lewis’ story (although the Inklings did share and critique each other’s works and Lewis probably had some influence on Tolkien’s writings). ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2011, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origins-of-a-dragon-sleeping-on-a-dragons-hoard/571210/15 "2011-02-14T17:39:37Z")
> [@](#): > > But Tolkien never took any of that for The Hobbit. Nope. Not a chance. Just like “Leaf by Niggle” wasn’t an allegory, oh no, it was a _fairy story_, no, really. ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/le_ministre_de_l_au-dela/32/12181_2.png) [@Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Ministre_de_l_au-dela)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2011, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origins-of-a-dragon-sleeping-on-a-dragons-hoard/571210/16 "2011-02-14T18:19:31Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > That’s excellent **Le Ministre de l’au-delĂ ** though it does not specifically say he slept on his golden treasure even there. Between these two scenes - [Siegfried, Act II, sc. 1](http://www.rwagner.net/libretti/siegfried/e-sieg-a2s1.html) [Siegfried, Act II, sc. 2](http://www.rwagner.net/libretti/siegfried/e-sieg-a2s2.html) - the picture is pretty firmly established that the hoard is in the cave - > [@](#): > > VOICE OF A BIRD > > Hey! The Niblung’s treasure > now belongs to Siegfried! > Now he’ll find the hoard > in the cave! > If he wants to take the Tarnhelm > it will help him perform wonderous deeds; > but if he could get the ring > it would make him ruler of the world! the dragon is in the cave and the dragon is asleep. It’s implied that most of what the dragon does is sleep, though if that’s explicitly stated anywhere, I can’t remember what scene. It might even get a specific mention somewhere in Die WalkĂŒre, now that I’m thinking of it
 I’ll have a rummage through that libretto and see if I can spot it. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2011, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origins-of-a-dragon-sleeping-on-a-dragons-hoard/571210/17 "2011-02-14T18:31:40Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > Does Beowulf’s dragon explicitly sleep on top of his horde? Of course not. That would squish them.. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2011, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origins-of-a-dragon-sleeping-on-a-dragons-hoard/571210/18 "2011-02-14T18:41:57Z")
> [@](#): > > It was undoubtedly the other way around. (sigh) You have what I said turned completely around. I clearly meant that Tolkien knew about Lewis’ use when he (Lewis) was writing it. I can’t believe that you misunderstood that. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2011, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origins-of-a-dragon-sleeping-on-a-dragons-hoard/571210/19 "2011-02-14T19:18:59Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > (sigh) > You have what I said turned completely around. I clearly meant that Tolkien knew about Lewis’ use when he (Lewis) was writing it. > I can’t believe that you misunderstood that. FTR, I read it the same way **Skammer** did. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2011, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origins-of-a-dragon-sleeping-on-a-dragons-hoard/571210/20 "2011-02-14T19:52:57Z")
You people are clearly not trying to get into my good graces if, confronted with what you see as an ambiguous phrase, you decide that I must have meant the _wrong_ one. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origins-of-a-dragon-sleeping-on-a-dragons-hoard/571210.md?page=2)