# Origins of "A Dragon Sleeping on a Dragon's Hoard" **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 13, 2011, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origins-of-a-dragon-sleeping-on-a-dragons-hoard/571210 "2011-02-13T13:26:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2011, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origins-of-a-dragon-sleeping-on-a-dragons-hoard/571210/21 "2011-02-14T20:19:39Z")
LOL, sorry **Cal**. I read your post and I said to myself “I just _said_ that Lewis was writing 15 years later…” 😃 Correcting for the misunderstood pronoun, I agree, I’m sure Lewis shared his Narnia drafts with the other Inklings as he was writing them and they would have given him plenty of suggestions as well. ---
**Author:** ![Gil-Martin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Gil-Martin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gil-Martin)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origins-of-a-dragon-sleeping-on-a-dragons-hoard/571210/22 "2011-02-15T00:41:00Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > That’s excellent **Le Ministre de l’au-delà** though it does not specifically say he slept on his golden treasure even there. > > **Gil-Martin** , I thought about the Greek Dragons and Great Serpents and none of them seem to fit the idea though I wondered if there were any pieces of classical art that depicted a dragon in such a pose. > > I was rereading the Hobbit and got to thinking this might be another standard Fantasy trope that Tolkien created, he at least made it popular I know. But then I figured something must predate it in old legends or the colored Fairy Tale books. I’m sure Tolkein was a great popularizer of this trope. However, I’m still convinced there are other examples of this from works predating those of the good professor. I was going to do some searching today to prove that I’m not a victim here of some strange false memories involving art and literature, but unfortunately my supervisor thinks my computers are actually for payroll and accounts receivable stuff. I considered correcting the poor man, but since this dragon business has already gotten me in trouble at home (the abandoned station wagon), I decided to forgo that for the time being. I did find a couple likely places to look however, and will probably report back on my findings as time allows. Unless this bothersome hunt turns into an outright quest, in which case I will talk to my therapist . . . I expect to have one or two examples by the end of this coming weekend. ---
**Author:** ![panamajack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/47e85d/32.png) [@panamajack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panamajack)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origins-of-a-dragon-sleeping-on-a-dragons-hoard/571210/23 "2011-02-15T01:13:06Z")
When did Tolkien deny that he’d taken Smaug from Beowulf? I always thought he was well aware that he was recasting European myths into stories in his own world. I believe he claimed to despise allegory (or accusations of allegory in the stories), so was it something more like that or did he really think he wasn’t do what he did? ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origins-of-a-dragon-sleeping-on-a-dragons-hoard/571210/24 "2011-02-15T01:57:53Z")
Tolkien never denied that Smaug was inspired by Beowulf. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origins-of-a-dragon-sleeping-on-a-dragons-hoard/571210/25 "2011-02-15T12:34:44Z")
> [@](#): > > Tolkien never denied that Smaug was inspired by Beowulf. I’m afraid he did. I don’t have the quote at hand, but I believe it’s cited in **The Annotated Hobbit**. Tolkien said something like “Bilbo Baggins stole the cup at that point because that’s what the story required.” ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origins-of-a-dragon-sleeping-on-a-dragons-hoard/571210/26 "2011-02-15T14:31:09Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > I’m afraid he did. I don’t have the quote at hand, but I believe it’s cited in **The Annotated Hobbit**. Tolkien said something like “Bilbo Baggins stole the cup at that point because that’s what the story required.” Cal, unless he specifically said Smaug was not inspired by Beowulf, I don’t think that interpretation is correct. His translation of Beowulf was used academically for decades IRC. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origins-of-a-dragon-sleeping-on-a-dragons-hoard/571210/27 "2011-02-15T14:47:11Z")
Chinese dragons symbolize prosperity, but I don’t think they nest on heaps of gold. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origins-of-a-dragon-sleeping-on-a-dragons-hoard/571210/28 "2011-02-15T16:01:25Z")
> [@](#): > > Cal, unless he specifically said Smaug was not inspired by Beowulf, I don’t think that interpretation is correct. In context, he was saying that his use of the thief-stealking-the-cup trope wasn’t inspired by Beowulf. I’ll look it up when I get home. > [@](#): > > His translation of Beowulf was used academically for decades IRC. Why even bring this up? He was a professor of Anglo-Saxon literature. I have no doubt that he was well aware of the story in Beowulf. I only repeat what I’ve seen attributed to him. I thought it was weird at the time, because I also have no doubt that he lifted the story from Beowulf. If I didn’t think it was weird, I’d never have brought it up. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origins-of-a-dragon-sleeping-on-a-dragons-hoard/571210/29 "2011-02-15T16:26:51Z")
Not a dragon per se, but another famous monster-sleeping-on-treasure story is in Kipling’s second _Jungle Book_ - _The King’s Ankus_. The monster in question was a monsterous cobra, guarding a king’s treasure long after the king’s city had fallen into ruin. ---
**Author:** ![Gil-Martin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Gil-Martin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gil-Martin)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origins-of-a-dragon-sleeping-on-a-dragons-hoard/571210/30 "2011-02-16T01:10:04Z")
I don’t think Tolkein’s translation of \*Beowulf \*has been published (though I would dearly love being wrong here!). I know his translation of \*Sir Gawain and the Green Knight \*has been used in literature classes for many years, though, and he translated a number of other works into modern English. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origins-of-a-dragon-sleeping-on-a-dragons-hoard/571210/31 "2011-02-16T01:30:17Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > You people are clearly not trying to get into my good graces if, confronted with what you see as an ambiguous phrase, you decide that I must have meant the _wrong_ one. You expect us to give you the benefit of the doubt? You must be new here. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origins-of-a-dragon-sleeping-on-a-dragons-hoard/571210/32 "2011-02-16T05:34:58Z")
I can’t remember which of my books includes “And Fafnir turned himself into a dragon and lay down on the gold”. Until I find that book, I can’t give the exact quote or cite the source of that quote. Was it one of the Eddas? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origins-of-a-dragon-sleeping-on-a-dragons-hoard/571210.md?page=1)