# Origins of "faggot" **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [July 25, 2003, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origins-of-faggot/190887 "2003-07-25T15:02:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2003, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origins-of-faggot/190887/21 "2003-08-04T22:41:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by GoatTosser \* > \*\*A faggot is a bunch of sticks - a group of homos with erections are a bunch of sticks, stick being an old slang term for slug, woody, cock or penis. And what happens when one rubs a bunch of sticks together? The heat rises. Who knows, who cares? \*\* In Ed Wood’s cinematic “masterpiece” _Glen or Glenda_, Ed Wood “shows” the audience what a homosexual is like with the following sequence: 1. A man on a street corner has a cigarette and asks you for a light. 2. You light a match and hold it up for him. 3. The man on the streetcorner puts the tip of his cigarette up to the match in your hand, and holds onto your hand _juuuuuust_ a bit too affectionately. 4. You realize this means he’s trying to pick you up and recoil in disgust, because as everyone knows you weren’t allowed to be homosexual in the 1950s. So maybe it **was** the connection of cigarettes with homosexuals that led to the current use of “fag”! ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2003, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origins-of-faggot/190887/22 "2003-08-05T06:23:52Z")
Except that the Ed Wood film was made well after the term made the “jump” we’re talking about. ---
**Author:** ![dearnora](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a9adbd/32.png) [@dearnora](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dearnora)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2004, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origins-of-faggot/190887/23 "2004-01-02T01:49:03Z")
i know this is old… but i think everyone is getting their info wrong! it was bothering me very much. okay… samclem, i’m not sure why you insist that everyone else’s theories are wrong. i know you did ‘research’ on the internet, but how reputable are these internet sources? are they from a scholarly journal? as far as i know-- (and this is what my professor said who taught a class about GLBT issues)-- those who suggested that “faggot” originated from the witch burning times, and using homosexual men to fuel the fire… is correct. in fact, the stench of the burning flesh smelled so badly, people sprinkled PANSIES (the flower) all over the burning mass… which is how the word “pansy” got associated with homosexual men. Furthermore, the word FAG for cigarette also originates from this witch burning thing. ie: what do you do with a faggot? (a bundle of sticks…or homosexuel men…) … yes that’s right. you light it and burn it. ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2004, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origins-of-faggot/190887/24 "2004-01-02T03:07:49Z")
> [@](#): > > as far as i know-- (and this is what my professor said who taught a class about GLBT issues)-- those who suggested that “faggot” originated from the witch burning times, and using homosexual men to fuel the fire… is correct. And as far as anyone who actually knows anything about the subject knows, it’s garbage, and your professor needs to have his credentials and/or his ethics checked. The original staff report has the story right. Fact: Homosexuals were _not_ punished by burning. Fact: “Faggot” meaning “annoying animal” and “annoying woman” are well attested long before “faggot” meaning “homosexual”. Fact: “Faggot” meaning “homosexual” first turns up in America in the 20th century. At best, the “faggot”-from-burning theory is a wild guess without an atom of solid evidence to back it up. At worst, it’s a deliberate lie. ---
**Author:** ![Canadjun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/76d3ee/32.png) [@Canadjun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Canadjun)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2004, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origins-of-faggot/190887/25 "2004-01-03T21:05:57Z")
For another use of the word “faggot” see [Mr. Brain’s Faggots](http://www.mrbrainsfaggots.com/) ---
**Author:** ![Grumple\_Grommit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9fc348/32.png) [@Grumple\_Grommit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumple_Grommit)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2004, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origins-of-faggot/190887/26 "2004-01-03T23:02:19Z")
Is there any reason why this particular thread seems to be a sock puppet theatre? ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2004, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origins-of-faggot/190887/27 "2004-01-04T00:11:41Z")
Italian for bassoon is: fagotto (fagotti is plural) German for bassoon is: Das Fagott Note spelling. In both cases, the accent falls on the second syllable. It is still printed thusly in many editions of classical repertoire, in both scores and parts, which are printed in Europe. In both languages, the original word meant a “bundle of sticks.” I suppose to some people, when the bassoon was developing as an instrument it did indeed resemble a bundle of sticks. As for the “modern” meaning of faggot in English (spelled and pronounced differently than the above): being a bassoonist myself, I have endured no end of idiotic jokes about this. ---
**Author:** ![Broom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f08c70/32.png) [@Broom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broom)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2004, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origins-of-faggot/190887/28 "2004-01-20T18:11:16Z")
Dearnora wrote: as far as i know-- (and this is what my professor said who taught a class about GLBT issues)-- those who suggested that “faggot” originated from the witch burning times, and using homosexual men to fuel the fire… is correct. in fact, the stench of the burning flesh smelled so badly, people sprinkled PANSIES (the flower) all over the burning mass… which is how the word “pansy” got associated with homosexual men. I’m afraid I have to discount **everything** your professor said after repeating this nonsensical piece of myth. Ever smelled a pansy? Ever smelled a barbecue in progress? I hate it when educators mindlessly repeat whatever they read. They should be retitled “readers”. /grump Actually, the only ancient example of execution of men for the crime of sodomy would be the execution of one of the lovers of King Edward II of England. He was drawn (but not to death), hung (but not to death) (insert graphic pun here), castrated, and crucified - with his genitals burnt on a pyre in front of him. This severe application was commented on by contemporaries as particularly shocking, but no doubt inspired by the particular revulsion Ed’s political enemies felt at the power held by this man (and secondarily by the revulsion for a _male_ king’s ‘mistress’). Therefore, I’m in doubt that homosexuals were routinely burned. If executed, hanging a/o chopping the head is much more efficient - and safe, in town. ---
**Author:** ![APB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e8cbc/32.png) [@APB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/APB)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2004, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origins-of-faggot/190887/29 "2004-01-22T14:12:31Z")
> [@Broom](#): > > Actually, the only ancient example of execution of men for the crime of sodomy would be the execution of one of the lovers of King Edward II of England. He was drawn (but not to death), hung (but not to death) (insert graphic pun here), castrated, and crucified - with his genitals burnt on a pyre in front of him. This severe application was commented on by contemporaries as particularly shocking, but no doubt inspired by the particular revulsion Ed’s political enemies felt at the power held by this man (and secondarily by the revulsion for a _male_ king’s ‘mistress’). Not that Hugh Despenser is an exception, as he was being executed for treason, not sodomy, and the method used was simply the standard one for convicted traitors in medieval England. ---
**Author:** ![Rube\_E.Tewesday](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f0a364/32.png) [@Rube\_E.Tewesday](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rube_E.Tewesday)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2004, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origins-of-faggot/190887/30 "2004-01-22T14:25:54Z")
IIRC, sodomy was a common law felony, and as such was punishable by hanging. (As mentioned, hanging, drawing and quartering was for male traitors, regardless of sexual persuasion.) I’m not aware of any offence other than heresy for which men were punished by burning alive in England. As **John W. Kennedy** says, homosexuals were not burned, and the whole “faggot from execution” theory is ludicrous. If we can return to the column – I personally think that the Yiddish origin is likely, given the term’s American origin, and the large contribution that Yiddish has made to American English. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2004, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origins-of-faggot/190887/31 "2004-01-22T20:53:04Z")
Follow-up to **APB** : I was under the impression that although hanging, drawing, etc. was the standard punishment for treason, it was custormary for the king to commute it to beheading for a nobleman convicted of treason, as an act of mercy. Was Despenser executed prior to this becoming the standard practice, or was it because Mortimer & Isabella refused to agree to it in his particular case? In other words, did his relationship with Edward II contribute to his punishment by preventing him from the traditional mercy? ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2004, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origins-of-faggot/190887/32 "2004-01-22T23:00:21Z")
Can I just say that as a native-born Englishman who’s by no means badly read, I am very familiar with the use of “fag” to mean a junior boy at public school (English usage) who runs errands for a senior, but not “faggot”? I have, for instance, read _Stalky & Co_ (Kipling) from cover to cover and seen many references to fags but none to faggots. “Fag” also means “cigarette”, as stated, or “irksome task” (“it’s a fag having to write this out”) no doubt by association with the school usage, whence also “fagged out” (mildly exhausted). “Faggot” is synonymous with none of these. Brit-side, “faggot” means “small savoury meatball, the composition of which you’re probably happier not knowing” or, more antiquated, “bundle of firewood” - the latter presumably from the Italian. IME, “faggot”=“homosexual” is considered an Americanism, though a widely understood one. ---
**Author:** ![APB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e8cbc/32.png) [@APB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/APB)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2004, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origins-of-faggot/190887/33 "2004-01-23T12:10:03Z")
> [@Northern Piper](#): > > Follow-up to **APB** : I was under the impression that although hanging, drawing, etc. was the standard punishment for treason, it was custormary for the king to commute it to beheading for a nobleman convicted of treason, as an act of mercy. > > Was Despenser executed prior to this becoming the standard practice, or was it because Mortimer & Isabella refused to agree to it in his particular case? In other words, did his relationship with Edward II contribute to his punishment by preventing him from the traditional mercy? Yes, it was customary for the king to commute the punishment to beheading in cases involving a nobleman, but there was no requirement to do so and there were occasional exceptions. In the case of the Despensers, the executions were little more than judicial lynchings - the trial, held almost as soon as they had been captured, was highly irregular and they were executed the next day. The usual niceties didn’t apply. The method of execution is unlikely to have been a direct comment on Despenser’s sexuality, as his father, the Earl of Winchester, was also hung, drawn and quartered. Of course, all this did reflect their unpopularity which was indeed the result of Despenser’s relationship with Edward, but there was much more to their unpopularity than what they may or may not have been getting up to in bed. It rather misses the point to assume that Despenser was being executed because he was homosexual. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2004, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origins-of-faggot/190887/34 "2004-01-25T14:40:21Z")
> [@John W. Kennedy](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Witches were burnt with faggots, > > No they weren’t–not in England, at least. Burning was reserved for cases of lapsed heresy and treason. The penalty for witchcraft was hanging. Coke and Blackstone both say that witchcraft was classified as a form of heresy and therefore could be punished by death by burning: [Coke, The Third Part of the Institutes of the Laws of England](http://dewey.library.upenn.edu/sceti/printedbooksNew/printableformat.cfm?coll=printedbooks&subcoll=coke_insts3&filename=coke_insts3_body0044.sid&pagePosition=54), at p. 44: > [@](#): > > And it appeareth by our ancient books that these horrible and devilsh offenders, which left the ever-living God, and and sacrificed to the Devill, and thereby committed Idolatry, in seeking advice and aid of him, were punished by death. > … > And burning them was, and yet is, the punishment for Hereticks. So as the conusance of these offences, if they be branches of heresie (as the law was then taken) belongs (as to this day heresie doth) to Ecclesiasticall Judges. In which case when they have given sentence, there lieth a Writ _De hæretic comburendo_. [Blackstone’s Commentaries on the Laws of England, Bk. 4](http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/blackstone/bk4ch4.htm), at p. 60: > [@](#): > > The civil law punishes with death not only the sorcerers themselves, but also those who consult them; imitating in the former the express law of God, “thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.” And our own laws, both before and since the conquest, have been equally penal ; ranking this crime in the same class with heresy, and condemning both to the flames. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2004, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origins-of-faggot/190887/35 "2004-01-25T14:41:56Z")
**APB** - interesting - thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2004, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origins-of-faggot/190887/36 "2004-01-25T15:17:07Z")
> [@Rube E. Tewesday](#): > > IIRC, sodomy was a common law felony, and as such was punishable by hanging. **Rube** , I’ve done some poking around. It looks like burning alive was the punishment for sodomy at common law in the medieval period, but Parliament made it a statutory felony during the Tudor period, and thereafter sodomy was potentially punished by death by hanging. Blackstone summarises the development of the law as follows: [Blackstone’s Commentaries on the Laws of England, Bk. IV, c. 15](http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/blackstone/bk4ch15.htm), at pp. 21-216: > [@](#): > > I WILL not act so disagreeable part, to my readers as well as myself, as to dwell any longer upon a subject, the very mention of which is a disgrace to human nature. It will be more eligible to imitate in this respect the delicacy of our English law, which treats it, in it’s very indictments, as a crime not fit to be named; “peccatum illud horribile, inter christianos non nominandum.” A taciturnity observed likewise by the edict of Constantius and Constans l : “ubi scelus est id, quod non proficit scire, jubemus insurgere leges, armari jura gladio ultore, ut exquisitis poenis subdantur infames, qui sunt, vel qui futuri sunt, rei.” Which leads me to add a word concerning it’s punishment. > > THIS the voice of nature and of reason, and the express law of God, determine to be capital. Of which we have a signal instance, long before the Jewish dispensation, by the destruction of two cities by fire from heaven: so that this is an universal, not merely a provincial, precept. And our antient law in some degree imitated this punishment, by commanding such miscreants to be burnt to death [citation to Britton; see link below]; though Fleta says they should be buried alive: either of which punishments was indifferently used for this crime among the antient Goths. But now the general punishment of all felonies is the same, namely, by hanging: and this offence (being in the times of popery only subject to ecclesiastical censures) was made single felony by the statute 25 Hen. VIII. c. 6 [1533] and felony without benefit of clergy by statute 5 Eliz. c. 17. And the rule of law herein is, that, if both are arrived at years of discretion, agentes et consentientes pari poena plectantur. This [link](http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/pwh/englaw.html) quotes the passage from Britton that Blackstone refers to. It also suggests, citing the preamble to 25 Hen. VIII [1533], c. 6, that one of the reasons for the change may have been that the penalty of buring alive wasn’t being enforced because it was too severe. Personally, I’ve never thought that hanging was all that merciful a way to peg out either, but it seems to have made a difference back then… But, getting back to our muttons, I would agree with you that the proposed etymology from the penalty of burning is silly. _Even if_ the penalty for sodomy at common law prior to 1533 was burning alive, and _even if_ that penalty was carried out at least occasionally, and _even if_ faggots of sticks were used for that purpose prior to 1533, it seems quite a stretch to say that a folk memory of that penalty would lead to the appearance of “faggot” to mean homosexual nearly four centuries later, in 1914, the first noted instance of its use. ---
**Author:** ![Canadjun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/76d3ee/32.png) [@Canadjun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Canadjun)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2004, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origins-of-faggot/190887/37 "2004-01-25T16:17:37Z")
> [@Northern Piper](#): > > Personally, I’ve never thought that hanging was all that merciful a way to peg out either, but it seems to have made a difference back then… Hanging, if done properly (properly=a competent hangman that doesn’t intend to prolong the agony) isn’t that unpleasant as executions go - it breaks your neck at the base of your skull; you don’t last long in that condition. Then again, if the hangman **does** want to prolong the agony (notably when someone was to be hung, drawn, and quartered for high treason) he can make it very unpleasant. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2004, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origins-of-faggot/190887/38 "2004-01-25T17:37:51Z")
Ahh, but you’re thinking of modern hanging, with a nice trapdoor, cleanly broken neck, etc. That’s not how it worked in medieval times. They tied the rope to the scaffold, looped it around your neck, and pushed you off the scaffold or ladder. No guarantee that your neck would break; more likely that you would just hang there, gradually suffocating; not uncommon for there to be involuntary evacuation of the bladder and bowels in the process. It was the accepted custom for friends of the condemned to pull on his legs and try and snap his neck, to speed up the death, but that wasn’t always allowed - and even that bit of “mercy” seems pretty painful for the person just hanging there, suffocating, and then having his legs pulled, which might snap his neck and end it, or perhaps just increase the strain and pain. All told, a dirty and undignified death - which was one of the reasons it was used. ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2004, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origins-of-faggot/190887/39 "2004-01-26T04:02:31Z")
It may well be that Coke and Blackstone say that burning _could be_ the penalty for witchcraft, but to the best of my knowledge, it wasn’t actually enforced for witchcraft _simpliciter_. (You’ll notice how many people believe there were burnings at Salem…) ---
**Author:** ![Rube\_E.Tewesday](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f0a364/32.png) [@Rube\_E.Tewesday](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rube_E.Tewesday)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2004, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origins-of-faggot/190887/40 "2004-01-26T21:10:47Z")
Ah, **Northern** , I’m kicking myself for not remembering that passage from Blackstone, difficult to parse though it is. As you say, though, I think we’re all in agreement that a \* possible \* pre 1500 English penalty did not result in a piece of 20th century American slang unknown in England. It does seem possible that someone once read that " in the Middle Ages homosexuals could be burned alive" and jumped to the “faggot” etymology without doing the research **samclem** did. (Of course, the idea of using human beings as _fuel_ to burn witches is, well, bizarre.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origins-of-faggot/190887.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origins-of-faggot/190887.md?page=3)