# Origins of the 21 gun salute - Give credit where credit is due. **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [May 12, 2002, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origins-of-the-21-gun-salute-give-credit-where-credit-is-due/108565 "2002-05-12T01:02:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![spleen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@spleen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spleen)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2002, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origins-of-the-21-gun-salute-give-credit-where-credit-is-due/108565/1 "2002-05-12T01:02:24Z")
Ian’s answer: [http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/m21gun.html](http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/m21gun.html) The army’s answer: [http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/faq/salute.htm](http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/faq/salute.htm) Strikingly similar answers, wouldn’t you say? The army wrote theirs in 1969. I think that you should give credit where credit is due. ---
**Author:** ![stankow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@stankow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stankow)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2002, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origins-of-the-21-gun-salute-give-credit-where-credit-is-due/108565/2 "2002-05-12T01:13:55Z")
I’d say they’re “strikingly similar” because facts are facts. If anything, Ian’s answer is _more_ complete. ---
**Author:** ![spleen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@spleen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spleen)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2002, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origins-of-the-21-gun-salute-give-credit-where-credit-is-due/108565/3 "2002-05-12T01:57:10Z")
While Ian’s answer does contain information not in the Army’s response, I wouldn’t necessarily call it “more complete,” considering what he left out. But that’s not the point. Facts, as you say, are facts. Sentences and phrases copied verbatim, though… that’s called plagarism. ---
**Author:** ![stankow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@stankow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stankow)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2002, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origins-of-the-21-gun-salute-give-credit-where-credit-is-due/108565/4 "2002-05-12T03:07:14Z")
You might want to get your own facts in order before you make such accusations. No sentences are copied verbatim, while two are, in your original words, strikingly similar. You do raise an interesting point, though. Did you e-mail Ian with your suspicions? ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2002, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origins-of-the-21-gun-salute-give-credit-where-credit-is-due/108565/5 "2002-05-12T03:07:30Z")
**Army in bold.** _Ian in italics._ > [@](#): > > **The use of gun salutes for military occasions is traced to early warriors who demonstrated their peaceful intentions by placing their weapons in a position that rendered them ineffective.** > [@](#): > > _The origin of gun salutes is usually attributed to soldiers or other armed types demonstrated peaceful intentions by placing their weapons (even back to the days of swords and spears) in a position that rendered them ineffective._ > [@](#): > > **as firearms and cannons came into use.** > [@](#): > > _As cannons and small arms came into use,_ > [@](#): > > \*\*Land batteries, having a greater supply of gunpowder, were able to fire three guns for every shot fired afloat, hence the salute by shore batteries was 21 guns. \*\* > [@](#): > > \*On land, with a less limited supply of gunpowder, they could fire three guns for every one shot from a ship, so a salute from a ship of seven guns would be answered by a salute from the shore batteries of 21 guns. \* > [@](#): > > **When potassium nitrate improved the quality of gunpowder, ships at sea adopted the salute of 21 guns.** > [@](#): > > _When gunpowder technology and storage improved, ships at sea adopted the salute of 21 guns._ > [@](#): > > \*\*Varying customs among the maritime powers led to confusion in saluting and return of salutes. \*\* > [@](#): > > \*There was some confusion on proper protocol of the whole salute thing. \* > [@](#): > > \*\*In 1810, the “national salute” was defined by the War Department as equal to the number of states in the Union–at that time 17. \*\* > [@](#): > > \*The US War Department, in 1810, set the “National Salute” at 17 guns, just to be contrary. \* > [@](#): > > \*\*The President also received a salute equal to the number of states whenever he visited a military installation. \*\* > [@](#): > > \*The President received a salute of one gun per state of the Union whenever he visited a military installation, \* > [@](#): > > \*\*Today the national salute of 21 guns is fired in honor of a national flag, the sovereign or chief of state of a foreign nation, a member of a reigning royal family, and the President, ex-President and President-elect of the United States. \*\* > [@](#): > > \*Despite the common cliche, 21 guns are only used to salute a national flag, the sovereign or chief of state of a foreign nation, a member of a reigning royal family, and anyone who’s ever been elected President of the US. - Eh, it just looks like High School Term Paper-style “rewriting” to me. If I were grading his paper, I’d take off half a point for “not terribly creative rewriting” (“wrote it on Sunday night, huh, kid?”), but I’d give him half a point for all the extra information he included that his source didn’t. Overall, pretty good term paper. And at least he handed in something halfway readable, which is more than some kids did… 😃 ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2002, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origins-of-the-21-gun-salute-give-credit-where-credit-is-due/108565/6 "2002-05-12T12:25:16Z")
I feel obliged to remind y’all that Staff Reports are NOT columns by Cecil. Staff Reports need not be original research, but can rely very heavily on already published or available sources. Thus, the “high school term paper” is not an inappropriate comparison. Some Reports go far deeper than that; others don’t. It depends partly on the question, and how readily the answer is available from primary sources. Lots of Staff Reports “crib” a phrase here and there (or even a few sentences) from other sources. We usually cite the source nowadays, but the earlier Staff Reports didn’t necessarily do that. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2002, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origins-of-the-21-gun-salute-give-credit-where-credit-is-due/108565/7 "2002-05-12T12:36:55Z")
Okay, smarty pants (all you smarty pantses) - how would _you_ present the information and word it differently? Give it your best shot and see if you can do better. And have any of you tried to research the info yourself? Can you find any versions of the history that are _not_ direct rip-offs of the Army fact sheet? I mean, if Ian could only find 50 different copies of the same version of the information, how much variation can he really include? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2002, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origins-of-the-21-gun-salute-give-credit-where-credit-is-due/108565/8 "2002-05-12T12:37:55Z")
And let’s not forget that the Army’s answer may well be a compilation of earlier stuff also. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2002, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origins-of-the-21-gun-salute-give-credit-where-credit-is-due/108565/9 "2002-05-12T21:51:38Z")
[http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq40-1.htm](http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq40-1.htm) Whoa! It looks as if the Navy borrowed _in toto_ from the Army or vice versa.