# Origins of the 'F' word **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [November 4, 2007, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origins-of-the-f-word/425196 "2007-11-04T15:47:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Wills1954](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e47774/32.png) [@Wills1954](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wills1954)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2007, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origins-of-the-f-word/425196/1 "2007-11-04T15:47:11Z")
It is of constant annoyance to me when this word is used in (inaccurate) historical films. Braveheart comes to mind and just last night the TV serial The Tudors has King Henry using the ‘f’ word. I have read Cecil’s column in order to discover the origins of this word and although there is evidence to suggest this word derives from our Germanic friends I would suggest another. At the turn of the 19th Century was the crime of rape not referred to as Forceful Unlawful Carnal Knowledge ( F.U.C.K.)? I do not believe this term was used before then. Is there a possibility of coincidence or am I right? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2007, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origins-of-the-f-word/425196/2 "2007-11-04T16:07:16Z")
> **[Fuck](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuck)** > > Fuck is an English-language profanity which often refers to the act of sexual intercourse, but is also commonly used as an intensifier or to convey disdain. While its origin is obscure, it is usually considered to be first attested to around 1475 CE. In modern usage, the term fuck and its derivatives (such as fucker and fucking) are used as a noun, a verb, an adjective, an interjection or an adverb. There are many common phrases that employ the word as well as compounds that incorporate it, su... ---
**Author:** ![The\_Stafford\_Cripps](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_stafford_cripps/32/7167_2.png) [@The\_Stafford\_Cripps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Stafford_Cripps)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2007, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origins-of-the-f-word/425196/3 "2007-11-04T16:21:35Z")
[QUOTE=Wills1954] It is of constant annoyance to me when this word is used in (inaccurate) historical films. Braveheart comes to mind and just last night the TV serial The Tudors has King Henry using the ‘f’ word. [/QUOTE] So are you otherwise happy that the characters spoke in real life the way the actors did? ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2007, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origins-of-the-f-word/425196/4 "2007-11-04T16:32:13Z")
When I had just started learning of the existence of cuss words (mid 70’s), I assumed that they were of very recent invention, by various teenagers across the nation (“Jimmy Jubel of Trenton, NJ, coined the term “fuck” at age 13 in 1953, and it rapidly spread from there all over the country within 7 years”). Earlier generations used their own cuss words, which quickly became obsolete as a given generation got older-I assumed that no adult would stoop so low as to continue to cuss into his twenties (as the only people I heard say such words were my peers). Yeah curse the overactive imagination of a gifted yet very sheltered teenager… ---
**Author:** ![Chez\_Guevara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/aeb1de/32.png) [@Chez\_Guevara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chez_Guevara)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2007, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origins-of-the-f-word/425196/5 "2007-11-04T17:27:53Z")
Snopes says [What the Fuck?](http://www.snopes.com/language/acronyms/fuck.asp) ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2007, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origins-of-the-f-word/425196/6 "2007-11-04T17:36:16Z")
[QUOTE=Wills1954] At the turn of the 19th Century was the crime of rape not referred to as Forceful Unlawful Carnal Knowledge ( F.U.C.K.)? I do not believe this term was used before then. [/QUOTE] Speak you of country matters? ---
**Author:** ![Chez\_Guevara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/aeb1de/32.png) [@Chez\_Guevara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chez_Guevara)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2007, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origins-of-the-f-word/425196/7 "2007-11-04T17:39:45Z")
Cecil responds to [What’s the origin of the “F” word?](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a2_268b.html) ---
**Author:** ![tonedef](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f05b48/32.png) [@tonedef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tonedef)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2007, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origins-of-the-f-word/425196/8 "2007-11-04T22:42:37Z")
[QUOTE=Wills1954] It is of constant annoyance to me when this word is used in (inaccurate) historical films. Braveheart comes to mind and just last night the TV serial The Tudors has King Henry using the ‘f’ word. I have read Cecil’s column in order to discover the origins of this word and although there is evidence to suggest this word derives from our Germanic friends I would suggest another. \*\*At the turn of the 19th Century was the crime of rape not referred to as Forceful Unlawful Carnal Knowledge ( F.U.C.K.)? \*\* I do not believe this term was used before then. Is there a possibility of coincidence or am I right? [/QUOTE] I always thought it meant **Fornication** **Under** the **Consent** of the **King**. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2007, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origins-of-the-f-word/425196/9 "2007-11-04T23:48:06Z")
[QUOTE=tonedef] I always thought it meant **Fornication** **Under** the **Consent** of the **King**. [/QUOTE] For goodness sake, READ the links that get provided!! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Wills1954](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e47774/32.png) [@Wills1954](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wills1954)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2007, 9:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origins-of-the-f-word/425196/10 "2007-11-05T09:09:14Z")
[QUOTE=Johnny L.A.] > **[Fuck](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuck)** > > Fuck (/fʌk/) is a profanity in the English language that often refers to the act of sexual intercourse, but is most commonly used as an intensifier or to convey disdain. While its origin is obscure, it is usually considered to be first attested to around 1475. In modern usage, the term fuck and its derivatives (such as fucker and fucking) are used as a noun, a verb, an adjective, an infix, an interjection, or an adverb. There are many common phrases that employ the word as well as compounds t... [/QUOTE] I should have gone to Wikipedia. I don’t think we will ever know the true origin. ---
**Author:** ![Wills1954](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e47774/32.png) [@Wills1954](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wills1954)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2007, 9:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origins-of-the-f-word/425196/11 "2007-11-05T09:13:16Z")
The point of my query is that I don’t believe people did speak in these terms historically, but it is interesting to have other peoples comments on this subject. ---
**Author:** ![Wills1954](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e47774/32.png) [@Wills1954](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wills1954)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2007, 9:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origins-of-the-f-word/425196/12 "2007-11-05T09:14:47Z")
Thank you ---
**Author:** ![Wills1954](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e47774/32.png) [@Wills1954](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wills1954)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2007, 9:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origins-of-the-f-word/425196/13 "2007-11-05T09:21:36Z")
[QUOTE=Chez Guevara] Cecil responds to [What’s the origin of the “F” word?](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a2_268b.html) [/QUOTE] Thanks Chez, this has been an education. ---
**Author:** ![Baldwin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baldwin/32/7264_2.png) [@Baldwin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baldwin)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2007, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origins-of-the-f-word/425196/14 "2007-11-05T13:01:19Z")
[QUOTE=Wills1954] Thanks Chez, this has been an education. [/QUOTE] Okay, we’ve established that it’s a very old word, and not an acronym. But as far as I know, the modern useage of _fucking_ as a general intensifier, rather than a literal term, is fairly recent. That always bugged me about the cursing on the HBO show “Deadwood”; although contemporary accounts mention the abundant foul language in the town, on the show they elected to go with modern-sounding cursing (basically using _fuck_ in every sentence) rather than 19th century cursing, which probably would have relied more on colorful blasphemies. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2007, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origins-of-the-f-word/425196/15 "2007-11-05T13:18:51Z")
[QUOTE=Wills1954] It is of constant annoyance to me when this word is used in (inaccurate) historical films. Braveheart comes to mind and just last night the TV serial The Tudors has King Henry using the ‘f’ word. I have read Cecil’s column in order to discover the origins of this word and although there is evidence to suggest this word derives from our Germanic friends I would suggest another. At the turn of the 19th Century was the crime of rape not referred to as Forceful Unlawful Carnal Knowledge ( F.U.C.K.)? I do not believe this term was used before then. Is there a possibility of coincidence or am I right? [/QUOTE] There’s no anachronism involved in Henry VIII’s use of the word. The two earliest cites in the OED both date from his reign and it’s likely the word goes back further. > [@](#): > > 1503 DUNBAR Poems lxxv. 13 Be his feiris he wald haue fukkit. 1535 LYNDESAY Satyre 1363 Bischops..may fuck thair fill and be vnmaryit. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2007, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origins-of-the-f-word/425196/16 "2007-11-05T14:46:20Z")
[QUOTE=Wills1954] The point of my query is that I don’t believe people did speak in these terms historically, but it is interesting to have other peoples comments on this subject. [/QUOTE] Well, John Wilmot, Earl of Rochester, used the word frequently in his poems, written in the 1670s. If you google “Earl Rochester fuck” you’ll get several hits. One of his most famous was a [Satyr on Charles II](http://andromeda.rutgers.edu/~jlynch/Texts/charles2.html) . When it came to the King’s attention, he had to flee the court for a while. The first verse reads: > [@](#): > > In th’ isle of Britain, long since famous grown > For breeding the best cunts in Christendom, > There reigns, and oh! long may he reign and thrive, > The easiest King and best-bred man alive. > Him no ambition moves to get renown > Like the French fool, that wanders up and down > Starving his people, hazarding his crown. > Peace is his aim, his gentleness is such, > And love he loves, for he loves **fucking** much. In another poem, [The Imperfect Enjoyment](http://andromeda.rutgers.edu/~jlynch/Texts/imperfect.html), he scolds his own member for having failed him at a crucial point, and contrasts that with previous encounters: > [@](#): > > Thou treacherous, base deserter of my flame, > False to my passion, fatal to my fame, > Through what mistaken magic dost thou prove > So true to lewdness, so untrue to love? > What oyster-cinder-beggar-common whore > Didst thou e’er fail in all thy life before? > When vice, disease, and scandal lead the way, > With what officious haste dost thou obey! > Like a rude, roaring hector in the streets > Who scuffles, cuffs, and justles all he meets, > But if his king or country claim his aid, > The rakehell villain shrinks and hides his head; > Ev’n so thy brutal valour is displayed, > Breaks every stew, does each small whore invade, > But when great Love the onset does command, > Base recreant to thy prince, thou dar’st not stand. > Worst part of me, and henceforth hated most, > Through all the town a common **fucking-post** , > On whom each whore relieves her tingling cunt > As hogs do rub themselves on gates and grunt, > May’st thou to ravenous chancres be a prey, > Or in consuming weepings waste away; > May strangury and stone thy days attend; > May’st thou ne’er piss, who did refuse to spend > When all my joys did on false thee depend. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2007, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origins-of-the-f-word/425196/17 "2007-11-05T16:04:49Z")
Acronyms as the supposed origin of words before approximately 1910 are almost always wrong: > **[Acronym](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acronym_and_initialism)** > > An acronym is a word or name consisting of parts of the full name's words. Sometimes, > initialism or alphabetism is used to refer to acronyms formed from the string of initials which are usually pronounced as individual letters, as in the FBI (Federal Bureau of Investigation).\[a\] But acronyms sometimes use syllables instead, as in Benelux (short for Belgium, the Netherlands, and Luxembourg), NAPOCOR (National Power Corporation), and TRANSCO (National Transmission Corporation). They can also be People just didn’t do acronyms back then. The few examples we can find before 1910 are reduced even further if we eliminate initialisms (where the letters are pronounced separately, rather than as part of a word). (Please, please don’t start an argument about whether initialisms are a type of acronym or something different.) ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2007, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origins-of-the-f-word/425196/18 "2007-11-05T16:32:09Z")
> [@](#): > > People just didn’t do acronyms back then. Or rather, acronyms themselves are old, it’s just acronyms _as word origins_ which are new. Before the early 1900s, when people used an acronym, they fit it into an existing word, rather than coining a new word. “Ichthos”, for instance, was the Greek word for “Fish” long before anyone applied it to Jesus. ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2007, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origins-of-the-f-word/425196/19 "2007-11-05T17:06:22Z")
Exception: acronyms are common in Hebrew. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2007, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origins-of-the-f-word/425196/20 "2007-11-05T17:52:01Z")
Another exception: “OK.” [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origins-of-the-f-word/425196.md?page=2)