# Origins of Whales? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 30, 2003, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origins-of-whales/191927 "2003-07-30T16:05:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2003, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origins-of-whales/191927/1 "2003-07-30T16:05:40Z")
A few years ago, I read a couple of essays by Stephen Jay Gould that dealt with the ancestry of whales. There seemed to be a fairly sound sequence that derived them from the mesonychids, a group of large bodied, large headed early carnivorous mammals (but not Carnivores in the taxonomic sense). This derivation was mentioned in the [largest mammalian carnivore](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=201041) thread. I recently saw some material, but with very little detail, that suggested that this derivation was incorrect, suggesting instead an ancestry close to the artiodactyls (pigs, camels, and ruminants). Unfortunately it was a very popularized article, without much detail, and I’ve never found anything else on it. Does anyone have the Straight Dope on what present theory is? I’d thought of asking it in that thread but figured it was an unnecessary hijack, and deserved its own thread. ---
**Author:** ![Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/earl_snake-hips_tucker/32/3269_2.png) [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earl_Snake-Hips_Tucker)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2003, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origins-of-whales/191927/2 "2003-07-30T16:15:39Z")
According to this, fossil evidence would place them deriving from mesochynids. Molecular evidence supports artiodactyls, most closely being related to hippos. [http://biology.uoregon.edu/classes/Bi355f01/topics%2001/topic%205%2001.html](http://biology.uoregon.edu/classes/Bi355f01/topics%2001/topic%205%2001.html) ---
**Author:** ![Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/earl_snake-hips_tucker/32/3269_2.png) [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earl_Snake-Hips_Tucker)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2003, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origins-of-whales/191927/3 "2003-07-30T16:18:44Z")
:smack: Also known as “mesonychids.” ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2003, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origins-of-whales/191927/4 "2003-07-30T16:52:24Z")
Sounds like the work of University of Michigan professor [Philip D. Gingerich](http://www-personal.umich.edu/~gingeric/PDGwhales/Whales.htm): > [@](#): > > Recovery of diagnostic ankle bones in the skeletons of primitive protocetids during our field work in Pakistan in 2000 confirmed their derivation from Artiodactyla (the mammalian order including cows, deer, hippos, etc.), and showed convincingly that whales did not originate from mesonychid condylarths as Van Valen hypothesized (and we expected). Indeed I remember Eddie jumping around on MTV in the '80s singing “Whales evolved from mesonychid condylarths, I hypothesize it’s 'cause of their teeth, yeh!” ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2003, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origins-of-whales/191927/5 "2003-07-30T17:10:44Z")
Scientific American had an article on whale ancestry about a year back, where they supported the ruminant hypothesis. I don’t remember too many details, though. ---
**Author:** ![Darwins\_Finch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darwins_finch/32/20304_2.png) [@Darwins\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darwins_Finch)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2003, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origins-of-whales/191927/6 "2003-07-30T18:08:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Polycarp \* > \*\*I recently saw some material, but with very little detail, that suggested that this derivation was incorrect, suggesting instead an ancestry close to the artiodactyls (pigs, camels, and ruminants). Unfortunately it was a very popularized article, without much detail, and I’ve never found anything else on it. > > Does anyone have the Straight Dope on what present theory is? I’d thought of asking it in that thread but figured it was an unnecessary hijack, and deserved its own thread. \*\* The present theory is that Artiodactyls are the closest living relatives to the whales (that is, they are sister groups). This is mentioned briefly [here](http://darla.neoucom.edu/DEPTS/ANAT/whaleorigins.htm). More information (indlusing references to primary literature) can be found [here](http://palaeo-electronica.org/1998_2/ging_uhen/issue2.htm) (lots of information there). From one of the articles at that site: > [@](#): > > The fossil record as now known indicates evolutionary divergence of Mesonychia + Cetacea from Arctocyonia + Artiodactyla in the early Paleocene or, reasonably, at the very end of the Cretaceous. I think I also have access to a 2001 article from _Nature_ which mentions the new Pakicetid find and its implications. Unfortunately, I don’t have access to it _here_, and will have to wait until I get home to check it. And [here](http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=000F114A-DDE4-1C6A-84A9809EC588EF21) is an old SciAm article (possibly the one referred to by **Chronos**?) on the subject. And [another](http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=000DF443-A772-1C75-9B81809EC588EF21&pageNumber=1&catID=4) (which references the aforementioned _Nature_ article), though this one doesn’t display properly in IE for some reason (stupid advertisements…). ---
**Author:** ![Darwins\_Finch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darwins_finch/32/20304_2.png) [@Darwins\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darwins_Finch)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2003, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origins-of-whales/191927/7 "2003-07-30T18:14:08Z")
“ **indlusing** references to primary literature”?! I meant “ **including** references…”! ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2003, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origins-of-whales/191927/8 "2003-07-30T19:03:06Z")
Trivia note: The previous prevailing hypothesis (i.e. their relationship to the mesonychids) that is being replaced by the new Artiodactyl hypothesis is the work of my wife’s father, the “Van Valen” referenced in **jjimm** ’s quote. It was a rather famously compelling bit of cladistic extrapolation at the time, and it’s rather sad to see it fading away in favor of the alternate DNA-based explanation. Google “Van Valen” + cetacean for the background on what at the time was a groundbreaking hypothesis. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2003, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/origins-of-whales/191927/9 "2003-07-30T21:34:46Z")
> [@](#): > > And here is an old SciAm article (possibly the one referred to by Chronos?) Nope, the one I was thinking of was definitely later than 1999. I don’t think it’s on the webpage.