# Orly Taitz resurfaces in New Hampshire **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [November 21, 2011, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orly-taitz-resurfaces-in-new-hampshire/603633 "2011-11-21T13:11:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 22
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2012, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orly-taitz-resurfaces-in-new-hampshire/603633/422 "2012-01-10T02:20:43Z")
Can we keep this one? PLEEEEEEZE? **Marley23** tried shutting him down before and I thought the lawyers would take over the thread again. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2012, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orly-taitz-resurfaces-in-new-hampshire/603633/423 "2012-01-10T02:22:10Z")
> [@KJR22](#): > > Moving forward, you can all be happy commenting amongst yourselves as you blissfully follow your Pied Piper leader together; I will no longer waste my time with any of you. I have much better things to do, as I fight for maintaining America’s freedoms, and the laws of our Constitution; and support and promote the candidates who will uphold them. Those are running words, not fighting words. If that is all that stands between freedom and tyranny, I’m betting on tyranny. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2012, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orly-taitz-resurfaces-in-new-hampshire/603633/424 "2012-01-10T02:26:39Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Those are running words, not fighting words. If that is all that stands between freedom and tyranny, I’m betting on tyranny. 50 quatloos on freedom! (Just 50. I ain’t gonna go all-out on this one.) ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2012, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orly-taitz-resurfaces-in-new-hampshire/603633/425 "2012-01-10T02:58:28Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > The other nagging problem is the “turtles all the way down” aspect of this crazy logic. If my great-grandfather was not a citizen when my grandmother was born, then she is not a citizen, therefore my mother is not a citizen, therefore I am not a citizen. If we require both parents to be citizens and reject birthright citizenship, the only citizens would be those directly descended only from those grandfathered in under the Constitution. Any non-citizen immigrants in the woodpile would ripple down the family tree, rendering all descendants non-citizens. It’s just crazy. _sigh_ …don’t make me do this…don’t make me do this…don’t make me do this…don’t make me do this…don’t make me do this…don’t make me do this…don’t make me do this…don’t make me do this… That’s not necessarily a problem. Consider for the moment (don’t make me do this…don’t make me do this…don’t make me do this) that the [del]Analytically Challenged, Mentally Disturbed and Racist Conglomerate[/del]Birthers’ case that “natural born” means you have two citizen parents. They are, as mentioned upthread, creating a third class of citizen: naturalized; natural born; and demented (for lack of a better term). In the [del]Detached from Reality, Unable to Follow Primary-School Logic, and Tyrant-Craving Coalition’s[/del]Birthers’ view, your grandmother would be a demented citizen, ineligible for the presidency. However, your mother, born to two citizen parents (natural born and demented) and having no claim to citizenship (or claim to citizenship but not having taken any steps towards dual citizenship/allegiance) will now have been a ‘natural born citizen’ and she (and you) are now eligible to run for the presidency (provided you’re not black. Or Hispanic. Or have a funny name. Or disagree with the politics of the [del]Jingoistic Constitutional Misinterpreters Association[/del]Birthers). The unfortunate (unfortunate in a ‘wouldn’t it be nice if there were anti-stupid pills’) thing is that had this argument been taking place a couple hundred years ago, and not stemming from such blatant racist/political ideology, there would have been interesting arguments on both sides. The ‘natural born’ qualification has/had significant and (particularly at the time) important roots. In many ways it still does–don’t forget a \*lot \*of the current nonsense in American politics is the result of an Australian (or is Murdoch Austrian? Which has the backwards-flushing toilets again?). So if it were 1786 and someone piped up “hey, about this natural born citizen thing, should we be explicit and say that _both_ parents must be citizens” wouldn’t necessarily have resulted in the mocking jeers that the question raises today. Had someone posted this question to GD in 2000 (going back before 9/11 to avoid as much falderal as possible), it wouldn’t have been a completely dead thread. With the benefit of hindsight it’s understandable to think of it as a moot question or one that has an obvious answer, but at the time there may have been significant discussion, if for anything to hash out the pros and cons of codifying the definition. Of course, at the time all the uppity black folk would be subject to lynching, not primarying, so that’s kind of moot too, isn’t it? Oh, and now that there’s been ample precedent and established custom, it’s so far beyond moot as to make a \*tooooooommmmmm \*sound. I have no idea what that means either; work with me here. _sigh_ ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2012, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orly-taitz-resurfaces-in-new-hampshire/603633/426 "2012-01-10T03:26:34Z")
> [@Rhythmdvl](#): > > _sigh_ I think, after that, you need a drink. ---
**Author:** ![robinson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/848f3c/32.png) [@robinson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robinson)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2012, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orly-taitz-resurfaces-in-new-hampshire/603633/427 "2012-01-10T03:27:01Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > What is it with women born in the Soviet Union moving to the United States and starting insane political movements that capture the minds of Republicans? They (Republicans) learned all the wrong lessons of the cold war, and are now competent to rule the USSR. I think it has to do with dreams of potency. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2012, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orly-taitz-resurfaces-in-new-hampshire/603633/428 "2012-01-10T03:30:01Z")
> [@Rhythmdvl](#): > > So if it were 1786 and someone piped up “hey, about this natural born citizen thing, should we be explicit and say that _both_ parents must be citizens” wouldn’t necessarily have resulted in the mocking jeers that the question raises today. No, but the response might have been, “Why?” 😕 The natural-citizen clause was put in only to forestall the possibility of some rich Euro prince taking over the fragile new republic. None such had even one American parent. ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2012, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orly-taitz-resurfaces-in-new-hampshire/603633/429 "2012-01-10T03:32:02Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > I think, after that, you need a drink. Thanks. Actually, I’ll be up most of the night working; sipping Oban 18 at the moment. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2012, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orly-taitz-resurfaces-in-new-hampshire/603633/430 "2012-01-10T03:37:48Z")
Don’t worry. There will be another one along soon. ---
**Author:** ![SCSimmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e495f1/32.png) [@SCSimmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SCSimmons)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2012, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orly-taitz-resurfaces-in-new-hampshire/603633/431 "2012-01-10T03:50:31Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > The other nagging problem is the “turtles all the way down” aspect of this crazy logic. If my great-grandfather was not a citizen when my grandmother was born, then she is not a citizen, therefore my mother is not a citizen, therefore I am not a citizen. If we require both parents to be citizens and reject birthright citizenship, the only citizens would be those directly descended only from those grandfathered in under the Constitution. Any non-citizen immigrants in the woodpile would ripple down the family tree, rendering all descendants non-citizens. It’s just crazy. Well, it’s crazy, but it’s not actually _that_ crazy. The birthers are inventing a third category of citizenship–‘natural-born citizen’ means someone who was born to two citizen parents. The other categories are citizen by birth (someone born to U.S. citizens _or_ born on U.S. soil), and naturalized citizens (someone born a non-citizen and made into one later). So you can be a natural-born citizen, under this theory, even if your parents were immigrants, as long as they were naturalized before you were born. (Or maybe conceived, if they’re pro-lifers too. :D) But since Barack Obama’s father was never granted citizenship, he is not a natural-born citizen (although he is a citizen by birth, per the 14th Amendment, unless he really was born in Kenya or Malaysia or Mars or wherever they decide tomorrow he’s actually from) and is not eligible for the presidency. His kids would be, as long as he was legally a citizen when they were born, though he probably wasn’t. Or something. See, it all makes sense now. Aside from the fact that there’s no evidence that this third category was ever intended or reasonably able to be inferred from the text of the Constitution. And the other fact that it’s all batshit insane. ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2012, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orly-taitz-resurfaces-in-new-hampshire/603633/432 "2012-01-10T03:50:51Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Awwwww… > > \ thank you > [@dropzone](#): > > Can we keep this one? PLEEEEEEZE? **Marley23** tried shutting him down before and I thought the lawyers would take over the thread again. :eek: Remember that saying about be careful about what you wish for? Still, this one was fun. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2012, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orly-taitz-resurfaces-in-new-hampshire/603633/433 "2012-01-10T03:52:32Z")
What about a guy who doesn’t even **know** who his father was? Should he be ineligible for the presidency? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2012, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orly-taitz-resurfaces-in-new-hampshire/603633/434 "2012-01-10T04:03:29Z")
> [@SCSimmons](#): > > Well, it’s crazy, but it’s not actually _that_ crazy. The birthers are inventing a third category of citizenship–‘natural-born citizen’ means someone who was born to two citizen parents. The other categories are citizen by birth (someone born to U.S. citizens _or_ born on U.S. soil), and naturalized citizens (someone born a non-citizen and made into one later). So you can be a natural-born citizen, under this theory, even if your parents were immigrants, as long as they were naturalized before you were born. But if they assumed they were natural-born by virtue of _jus solis,_ they would have no reason to seek naturalization. So if the birthers get their way, they could disenfranchise millions of people. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2012, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orly-taitz-resurfaces-in-new-hampshire/603633/435 "2012-01-10T04:18:28Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > But if they assumed they were natural-born by virtue of _jus solis,_ they would have no reason to seek naturalization. So if the birthers get their way, they could disenfranchise millions of people. \ Disenfranchise, eh? Excellent! \ Seems like win-win for them then! ---
**Author:** ![DoctorJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctorj/32/2904_2.png) [@DoctorJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DoctorJ)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2012, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orly-taitz-resurfaces-in-new-hampshire/603633/436 "2012-01-10T05:29:07Z")
> [@KJR22](#): > > Obama has been disasterous for America! You know, it’s odd, but I have never seen a single birther who actually supports the President and his politics. You’d think that there would be a principled few who would say, “Oh, I think he’s been a terrific President. The economy is turning around, we’ve made a start at health care reform, and he even got bin Laden! But gosh darn it, he’s just not eligible for the office.” I’ll take the birthers an extremely tiny bit more seriously when I hear that from some of them. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2012, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orly-taitz-resurfaces-in-new-hampshire/603633/437 "2012-01-10T11:16:50Z")
> [@KJR22](#): > > Seriously? The very fact that Congress introduced all these bills (8) trying to CHANGE the Constitution to reflect that a natural born citizen does not require TWO citizen parents says it all! No it doesn’t, and I note that you have conveniently ignored the fact that some of those bills were Republican-sponsored, that at least one was entirely irrelevant to Obama and that Hillary was supposed to be the Democratic heir-designate until quite late in the game. But don’t let facts get in the way of your frothing. In fact, as already pointed out, in pre-Obama times there was serious discussion over whether the “natural-born citizen” requirement should be changed to allow Ahnold to ascend to the Presidency, back when he was popular and California hadn’t yet entirely sunk into the economic tarpits. That may well have been what was driving the Republican bills in that list (I’d go back and check but seriously, you’re gone so why bother?) > [@KJR22](#): > > You know what…I’ve tried to carry on a thoughtful dialog here, presenting fact after fact, but I have gotten nothing but snide remarks and criticism from you, as the moderator, and the yahoo’s who continue to spout their liberal bias and LIES. Moving forward, you can all be happy commenting amongst yourselves as you blissfully follow your Pied Piper leader together; I will no longer waste my time with any of you. I have much better things to do, as I fight for maintaining America’s freedoms, and the laws of our Constitution; and support and promote the candidates who will uphold them. That certainly is not Obama! AND, I do not consider him MY President. > Good-bye one and all…and just so you know, I won’t be reading anymore of your pithy comments, so no need to even bother to make them. I’d have been banned anyways, because Marley23 and the rest of you can’t seem to take the truth. All of you have a good life with your heads in the sand! Translation: how dare you actually fact-check my arguments and point out their obvious flaws rather than just accepting everything I tell you? Screw you guys - I’m-a going home. > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Don’t worry. There will be another one along soon. Or the same one with new footwear. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2012, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orly-taitz-resurfaces-in-new-hampshire/603633/438 "2012-01-10T14:09:24Z")
I do love me some stockings. ---
**Author:** ![mkecane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9e8a1a/32.png) [@mkecane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mkecane)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2012, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orly-taitz-resurfaces-in-new-hampshire/603633/439 "2012-01-10T16:26:19Z")
I always laugh when I see those comments about “He’s not _my_ president!” Of course, in the 90s, it was “My president is Charlton Heston.” Who’s now a corpse in the ground… But Clinton WAS your president, so long as you’re a US citizen. Bush WAS my president, no matter how much I disliked him. And Obama IS my president. Nitpick, but annoying. Maybe these people are just trying to publicly denounce their citizenship status, which would be nice. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2012, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orly-taitz-resurfaces-in-new-hampshire/603633/440 "2012-01-10T16:49:28Z")
If we require that both parents have to be US citizens, then won’t we have to do a DNA test of every candidate to prove paternity (or maternity, for that matter)? ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2012, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orly-taitz-resurfaces-in-new-hampshire/603633/441 "2012-01-10T17:41:29Z")
Gerald Ford - real name Leslie King - was adopted. They say his birth parents were American, but do real Americans have names like King? The constitution forbids foreign royalty but he was made President without anybody electing him! How was it done? The Illuminati? The Trilateral Commission? The Babylon Brotherhood? They say that he’s dead, but is he, really? Are you sure? How do you know? And why can’t he be put in place as a zombie if elections don’t matter? I have here in my talons a Constitutional Amendment that would prohibit zombie lizard people from being president. That’s the real menace we need to face up to. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orly-taitz-resurfaces-in-new-hampshire/603633.md?page=21) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orly-taitz-resurfaces-in-new-hampshire/603633.md?page=23)