# O'Rourke on gun confiscation, then and now (a.k.a. Francis' flip-flop) **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [September 16, 2019, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333 "2019-09-16T19:10:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/1 "2019-09-16T19:10:28Z")
Beto’s campaign is floundering badly, and in his desperation he’s decided that completely reversing his earlier position could be a savvy political move: Then: > [@Beto in April 2018](#): > > If you purchased that AR-15, if you own it, keep it. … If you own a gun, keep that gun. Nobody wants to take it away from you — at least I don’t want to do that. Now: > [@Beto in September 2019](#): > > Hell yes, we’re going to take your AR-15, your AK-47. We’re not going to allow it to be used against our fellow Americans anymore! The AP put it this way: [Coming for your AR-15? O’Rourke scrambles Dems’ gun message](https://www.apnews.com/07f65423a9814f1b9279afd0fba0a50c) > [@](#): > > Beto O’Rourke’s “hell yes” moment at the Democrats’ presidential debate is scrambling his party’s message on guns. > > The Democrats have long contended their support of gun control laws does not mean they want to take away law-abiding citizens’ firearms. But on Friday, they struggled to square that message with their presidential contender’s full-throated call on national TV for confiscating assault rifles. I’d like to take a moment here and sincerely thank Francis for almost certainly single-handedly killing the chances of some new gun control measures passing through Congress, just at the precise moment that President Trump and Senator McConnell seemed to be going all wobbly on us. What do you guys think of him though? Is the once-golden-boy of the Democratic Party now looked at like that crazy uncle that’s muttering nonsense to himself (like how they used to look at Joe Biden)? Or has he got his finger on the pulse of the bleeding hearts of liberals, giving voice to your deepest desires? Was he lying then or is he lying now? ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/2 "2019-09-16T19:21:01Z")
The more distant your odds are of winning the nomination, the freer you are to truly speak your mind. ---
**Author:** ![Twoflower](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/twoflower/32/22_2.png) [@Twoflower](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Twoflower)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/3 "2019-09-16T19:52:13Z")
I have absolutely no problem with the idea that the recent shooting in El Paso caused him to change his mind. ---
**Author:** ![Ukulele\_Ike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/df788c/32.png) [@Ukulele\_Ike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ukulele_Ike)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/4 "2019-09-16T19:54:00Z")
**Hurricane Ditka:**. I’m a comin’ to GRAB YOUR GUNS. Fear me. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/5 "2019-09-16T20:15:19Z")
[Strategy analysts seemed to think it was a good move,](https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2019/09/13/dem-debate-abc-winners-losers-roundup-228104) to varying degrees: > [@](#): > > “Will the debate have much effect on overall polling? Aside from small bumps for O’Rourke and Booker, probably not.” […] > > “O’Rourke was the clear star of the night because he was authentic and honest about guns and what he intends to do about them. He has found his voice after the El Paso Walmart shooting, and I think that Beto will move into the top tier.” […] > > “In top form were Booker, Buttigieg, Klobuchar and O’Rourke, all of whom can use this event to bolster their struggling candidacies.” […] > > “O’Rourke emerged a second-tier victor, at least during the first half of the debate. You know you’re having a good night when virtually everyone else on the stage commends the way you’ve spoken about gun violence and the massacre in El Paso.” Personally, I’m undecided about the practical advantages of broadly-defined-type-based gun bans, so from a policy perspective I’m like “Hmmm, still thinking”. But from a public discourse perspective, I think it’s a good thing to have a wider variety of opinions on gun-control measures openly discussed. I don’t want any constitutional and potentially practical strategies for reducing gun violence to be automatically taboo in the national conversation just because they’re not popular with gun owners. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/6 "2019-09-16T20:23:35Z")
> [@Twoflower](#): > > I have absolutely no problem with the idea that the recent shooting in El Paso caused him to change his mind. You don’t think it’s got anything to do with the different constituencies he’s trying to calibrate his message to appeal to: Texans then and dem primary voters now? ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/7 "2019-09-16T20:25:23Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Beto’s campaign is floundering badly, and in his desperation he’s decided that completely reversing his earlier position could be a savvy political move: Why do you believe he is acting in desperation? Why can’t it be that he really feels this way and has finally saw the light, and it’s not just some political calculation? Because your statement here doesn’t really allow for this possibility. > [@](#): > > I’d like to take a moment here and sincerely thank Francis for almost certainly single-handedly killing the chances of some new gun control measures passing through Congress, just at the precise moment that President Trump and Senator McConnell seemed to be going all wobbly on us. Assuming that there was ever a chance of something passing with the Republicans in charge in the Senate (HA!), why do you feel this would kill it? What’s the logic here? > [@](#): > > What do you guys think of him though? Is the once-golden-boy of the Democratic Party now looked at like that crazy uncle that’s muttering nonsense to himself (like how they used to look at Joe Biden)? Or has he got his finger on the pulse of the bleeding hearts of liberals, giving voice to your deepest desires? Was he lying then or is he lying now? If you want people to stop killing other people with the types of weapons O’Rourke wants to ban, it’s not crazy at all what he is saying. You make think he’s muttering nonsense, but that doesn’t make it so. Finally, if wanting people to stop dying because of guns makes me a “bleeding heart” liberal, so be it. If we are going to stop 40K or so people from dying every year in this country because of guns, we’re going to have to start banning them in considerable numbers. It’s the only way. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/8 "2019-09-16T20:29:28Z")
Briscoe Cain is the one looking like a crazy uncle. ---
**Author:** ![Corry\_El](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Corry\_El](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corry_El)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/9 "2019-09-16T20:48:23Z")
> [@Twoflower](#): > > I have absolutely no problem with the idea that the recent shooting in El Paso caused him to change his mind. I tend to be more cynical about politicians not only him. I’d guess it highly likely he believed in confiscation back when he denied it, or more likely still doesn’t really care, just wants to get elected and his campaign is sinking to the point he might as well take a shot, any shot. But who really knows what’s in other people’s minds? The point is how generally ridiculous it is when either politicians or people on the internet say ‘who’s talking about taking guns?!? we’re not saying that _at all_, you’re just paranoid from watching too much Fox News’, etc. But, trying to think of it objectively, nothing you do that only applies to new gun sales is going to make a major difference for a long time. Guns last a really long time with reasonable care, could be centuries assuming only moderate use, and even ammunition can be usable for decades if stored properly. So it only makes sense, if you value gun rights lightly relative to the societal benefits you see from fewer guns, to want to also take (certain kinds, at least of) guns away from people who bought them legally. The reason not to say so is to avoid inspiring such strong anti-gun control feelings (votes, fund raising, etc) that it could spill over to preventing even half measures like banning sale of the same types of new guns. There isn’t really a principled reason to be in favor banning sale of X type guns but be against confiscation of existing X type guns. But by the same token pro-gun rights people who see a slippery slope to confiscation are probably not being that paranoid actually. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/10 "2019-09-16T20:50:28Z")
> [@Skywatcher](#): > > Briscoe Cain is the one looking like a crazy uncle. Yeah. My (fairly neutral) opinion of O’Rourke hasn’t really significantly shifted in response to this particular rhetoric, but my (previously nonexistent) view of this turd Cain is strongly negative. On a side note, I was also unfavorably impressed to learn about Rep. Cain’s sanctimonious Nyah-Nyah-Dead-Atheist response last year to the death of physicist (and atheist) Stephen Hawking: _“Stephen Hawking now knows the truth about how the universe was actually made.”_ Dumbasses who would be totally incapable of understanding the work of a groundbreaking scientist or intelligently discussing his work with him during his lifetime leap at the chance to act smugly superior about him once he’s safely dead. ---
**Author:** ![E-DUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/e-dub/32/403_2.png) [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/11 "2019-09-16T20:54:50Z")
> [@Twoflower](#): > > I have absolutely no problem with the idea that the recent shooting in El Paso caused him to change his mind. Absolutely. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/12 "2019-09-16T21:05:37Z")
I am not a fan of O’Rourke. Don’t hate him. He’s just not my top pick in this Democratic field. But I do appreciate his evolution on guns and the fact that he was bold enough to say what has to be said more often, and embraced by American society as a whole. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/13 "2019-09-16T21:12:49Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Beto’s campaign is floundering badly, and in his desperation he’s decided that completely reversing his earlier position could be a savvy political move: \ Was he lying then or is he lying now? Whaddaya know - sometime over the course of a year and a half, he _changed his mind_. Seems quite familiar - sometime over the past two or three years, I changed my mind in the very same way. Merely no longer selling assault weapons isn’t enough, given the millions of them out there: mandatory buybacks are a necessity to stop the slaughter. And like I keep saying, feel free to call me a gun-grabber, because you’ve been calling me one all along. What are you going to call me that’s any different, now that I’m actually for _bona fide_ gun grabbing? _Wolf, wolf, wolf!_ So good for Beto. El Paso really did seem to change him - it was the moment [he could not deal with the bullshit any longer](https://www.businessinsider.com/beto-orourke-criticizes-media-coverage-trump-el-paso-shooting-2019-8): > [@](#): > > On Saturday, a gunman opened fire in an El Paso Wal-mart, killing 22 people and wounding dozens of others. Shortly before the shooting, the suspect is believed to have posted a manifesto on the website 8chan warning of a “Hispanic invasion” of Texas and writing that he was “simply defending my country from cultural and ethnic replacement brought on by an invasion.” > > Late Sunday evening, a reporter asked O’Rourke, “is there anything in your mind that the president can do now to make this any better?” > > O’Rourke, a 2020 Democratic presidential candidate, gave an impassioned and emotional response both calling out Trump’s rhetoric and the media for continuing to question whether Trump was enabling racism. > > “What do you think? You know the s— he’s been saying. He’s been calling Mexican immigrants rapists and criminals. I don’t know, like members of the press, what the f—? Hold on a second, you know, I … it’s these questions that you know the answers to,” he responded. > > He continued, “connect the dots about what he’s been doing in this country. He’s not tolerating racism, he’s promoting racism. He’s not tolerating violence, he’s inciting racism and violence. So, uhm, you know, I just … I don’t what kind of question that is.” And that’s pretty much how he’s been rolling ever since. For instance, [he was asked about Biden’s age on Meet the Press yesterday morning](https://twitter.com/BetoORourke/status/1173286217816956931): > [@Beto](#): > > Who the hell cares about Joe Biden’s age? You have kids in cages. You have 10 years left to confront climate change. Millions who can’t see a doctor. Nearly 40,000 gun deaths a year. A lawless president. We have to talk about the big things people in this country care about. IOW, take your bullshit question and shove it. An awful lot of Democrats have been waiting for a long time for candidates who aren’t going to go along with talking about whatever the media think is important that week, who are going to say, look, I don’t care what your _issue du jour_ is, here’s what really _matters_." Gimme more, Beto, gimme more! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/14 "2019-09-16T21:23:21Z")
> [@Corry\_El](#): > > But by the same token pro-gun rights people who see a slippery slope to confiscation are probably not being that paranoid actually. 🙂 Yeah, they’re paranoid about losing their guns. We’re paranoid about people losing their _lives_. ---
**Author:** ![not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_what_you_d_expect/32/3246_2.png) [@not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_what_you_d_expect)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/15 "2019-09-16T21:23:21Z")
He’s no doubt been deeply affected by the many personal emotional interactions he has had with all of the victims in his district. I mean, if something like that can’t change a mind, what the hell could? It’s completely unquestionable to me that his is not a cynical move. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/16 "2019-09-16T21:29:44Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > I am not a fan of O’Rourke. Don’t hate him. He’s just not my top pick in this Democratic field. But I do appreciate his evolution on guns and the fact that he was bold enough to say what has to be said more often, and embraced by American society as a whole. Please do say it more often. For decades, Democrats have worked against the perception that any regulation of guns was just another step on the slippery slope to confiscation. Every time a Republican made that claim, the Democrats would rush out and say, “No, No! We don’t want to take anyone’s guns! We just want a modicum of common-sense regulation!”. And that’s worked, as about 70% of Americans are in favor of ‘common sense’ gun regulations. They just differ on what those are. In one night, Beto O’Rourke destroyed decades of perception control by anti-gunners. Now, any time a Democrat says they don’t want to ban guns, someone will hold up a Beto T-shirt that says, “Hell yes I’m going to take your AR-15”, or quote the many Democrats who came out in favor. By the way, the AR-15 is the most popular rifle in America. As such, it is absolutely constitutionally protected. Beto might as well have made up a T-shirt that said, “Hell yes I plan to violate my oath to defend the Constitution!” This is a setback for gun control. ---
**Author:** ![CaptMurdock](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/captmurdock/32/11736_2.png) [@CaptMurdock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CaptMurdock)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/17 "2019-09-16T21:33:10Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Please do say it more often. For decades, Democrats have worked against the perception that any regulation of guns was just another step on the slippery slope to confiscation. Every time a Republican made that claim, the Democrats would rush out and say, “No, No! We don’t want to take anyone’s guns! We just want a modicum of common-sense regulation!”. And that’s worked, as about 70% of Americans are in favor of ‘common sense’ gun regulations. They just differ on what those are. Was this before or after the number and severity of mass shootings in the U.S. increased almost exponentially? That was then. This is now. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/18 "2019-09-16T21:39:46Z")
I get the sense (at least, from the loud cheering for Beto’s remarks during the debate) that for many Democratic voters, Beto’s comments were at last a big breath of fresh air, where someone finally said out loud what they had been silently wishing for all along but that no other (D) candidate was going to say. \*Finally \*someone who wants the assault rifles confiscated. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/19 "2019-09-16T22:18:46Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > In one night, Beto O’Rourke destroyed decades of perception control by anti-gunners. Well, as with most tipping points, there was doubtless a long slow build-up to the deceptively sudden moment of tip. What O’Rourke did AFAICT was not so much moving the needle on the actual likelihood of a legislative ban as daring to articulate how much most Americans have come to distrust a lot of gun owners, and to consider them not sufficiently responsible to have completely uncontrolled access to such dangerous weapons. I don’t see this as some kind of long-awaited slipping of the mask of “covert confiscationists”, so much as a snapping point for many people who have lost faith that compromise is possible. The newly adversarial stance is expressing a lot of frustrated (and frightened) Americans’ conscious loss of belief that they have a good-faith partner in gun-rights advocates when it comes to negotiating a path toward greater gun safety. The feeling is not _“Ha ha, yes we really are going to take your guns, we always intended to!”_ It’s _“We’ve stood by and watched all this shit happen as your desired interpretation of gun rights has gone on expanding and your response to mass shootings and other gun violence has always been perfunctory ‘thoughts and prayers’ along with demands for more guns. It’s finally dawning on us that you don’t actually give a crap about people being killed compared to your self-image as a heroic rights-defending patriot. Fuck compromise any more, we’re taking your guns away.”_ Mind you, I personally don’t think that this mood of anger and frustration is the most constructive attitude for approaching discussions of deadly weapons, and it’s unlikely to make any form of abolition movement more practically effective. But I think it’s important to recognize that **this is about a shift in most Americans’ attitude and a loss of their trust, not about a sudden revelation of what they were really meaning to do all along.** > [@Sam Stone](#): > > By the way, the AR-15 is the most popular rifle in America. As such, it is absolutely constitutionally protected. [Probably so.](https://thehill.com/opinion/judiciary/456557-why-gun-control-is-so-hard-to-enact) I think we’re more likely to see rapid movement on so-called “red flag” legislation than on broad-based weapon bans. After all, guns don’t kill people, people kill people, and a large number of Americans are in favor of being more proactive in trying to identify and disarm the people who do. Of course, there are some constitutional-rights thickets to be negotiated there too. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/20 "2019-09-16T22:36:54Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > … how much most Americans have come to distrust a lot of gun owners… But I think it’s important to recognize that **this is about a shift in most Americans’ attitude and a loss of their trust…** I think you’re trying too hard to speak for “most Americans” here. [Most Americans don’t agree with Beto “Hell Yes, We’re Going to Take Your AR-15’s” O’Rourke](https://news.gallup.com/poll/1645/guns.aspx): > [@](#): > > Are you for or against a law which would make it illegal to manufacture, sell or possess semi-automatic guns known as assault rifles? > \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_For Against No opinion > 2018 Oct 1-10 40 57 3 > 2017 Oct 5-11 48 49 3 > 2016 Oct 5-9 36 61 3 > 2012 Dec 19-22 44 51 5 > 2011 Oct 6-9 43 53 5 > 2004 Oct 11-14 50 46 4 > 2000 Oct 25-28 ^ 59 39 2 > 1996 Apr 25-28 ^ 57 42 1 > ^ WORDING: Would you vote – for or against a law which would make it illegal to manufacture, sell, or possess semi-automatic guns known as assault rifles? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333.md?page=2)