# O'Rourke on gun confiscation, then and now (a.k.a. Francis' flip-flop) **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [September 16, 2019, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333 "2019-09-16T19:10:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2019, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/181 "2019-09-20T03:18:21Z")
> [@MacTech](#): > > [you may find this video interesting (sherrif tests difference in mag capacity)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCSySuemiHU) I watched 1 minute 23 seconds of that video. It basically says having bigger magazines is favorable for police officers and self-defenders. Did I miss anything? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2019, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/182 "2019-09-20T04:12:18Z")
> [@snfaulkner](#): > > Except, duh, cars are far more useful in many ways other than to kill. Killing is an unfortunate side effect that is constantly being studied and lessened. Unlike a certain tool that is designed from the beginning to kill… If guns are designed to kill people, they do a very poor job of it, since with 400 Million guns they murder maybe 10000 people, that’s 1 in 40000. Pretty bad design there. But they are not, really. ---
**Author:** ![snfaulkner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snfaulkner/32/433_2.png) [@snfaulkner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snfaulkner)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2019, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/183 "2019-09-20T04:29:33Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > If guns are designed to kill people, they do a very poor job of it, since with 400 Million guns they murder maybe 10000 people, that’s 1 in 40000. Pretty bad design there. > > But they are not, really. Tell that to all the militaries of the world. I’m sure that they’d be pleased to know that they’ve been wasting their time and money on guns. If it makes you feel better, how about I rephrase it as “designed to kill and project the the threat of killing” ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2019, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/184 "2019-09-20T04:32:17Z")
> [@snfaulkner](#): > > Tell that to all the militaries of the world. I’m sure that they’d be pleased to know that they’ve been wasting their time and money on guns. > > If it makes you feel better, how about I rephrase it as “designed to kill and project the the threat of killing” Nope, not that either. Unless you could hunting as “killing”, which of course it is, but not in the context here. Target and skeet shooters kill nothing, Olympic athlete shooters kill nothing, gun collectors kill nothing, cow-boy action shooters kill nothing, etc. And people who buy a gun for home defense hope desperately they will never have to kill anyone. ---
**Author:** ![not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_what_you_d_expect/32/3246_2.png) [@not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_what_you_d_expect)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2019, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/185 "2019-09-20T04:42:31Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > That’s exactly what they do. The AR-15 is used not because it’s the deadliest, but because it looks bad-ass. There are also a whole lot of them out there, so they are relatively easy to find/steal. > > But if the AR is banned, there are lots of other guns that look ‘badass’. And all it will take is some action movie where the hero uses twin shotguns or something, and we’ll start seeing shotgun killings. If that happens, are we going to ban shotguns? > > London banned all the guns. Then knives became the cool thing to have. Now people are being murdered with knives, and the government wants to ban scary looking knives and make it illegal to carry a knife on your person. > > You let them take away all the knives, and next they’ll come for your screwdrivers. Because it’s easier than admitting that you have large scale social problems of your own making, Maybe we could paint them pink or something so they won’t look so bad-ass! Or maybe rainbow colored. Bet that would help. ---
**Author:** ![snfaulkner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snfaulkner/32/433_2.png) [@snfaulkner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snfaulkner)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2019, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/186 "2019-09-20T04:45:46Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Nope, not that either. Unless you could hunting as “killing”, which of course it is, but not in the context here. Target and skeet shooters kill nothing, Olympic athlete shooters kill nothing, gun collectors kill nothing, cow-boy action shooters kill nothing, etc. > > And people who buy a gun for home defense hope desperately they will never have to kill anyone. It’s all simulated killing, dude. You can’t have live targets because its illegal, obviously. For competion, you need to level the playing field and not have it come down to chance how critters are going to act. Skeet is simulating birds. Olympic biathlon is simulated hunting. Target shooters are generally aiming at human silhouettes, for fucks sake. Granted, I’ve only been to a dozen or so ranges, but every single time the default target is a human silhouette. Gun collectors, fine. They should be ok with them being non working then, right? I don’t know what you mean by “cowboy action shooter”. Please explain. Edit: does it make you feel better if I say “destroy” instead of “kill” ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2019, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/187 "2019-09-20T06:43:52Z")
> [@snfaulkner](#): > > … I don’t know what you mean by “cowboy action shooter”. Please explain. … It’s a particular type of shooting event / competition. The participants typically dress like cowboys and use cowboy-ish guns: revolvers, lever-action rifles, etc. [Watch some of this to get the idea](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXPB8I1FuF8). ETA: the rest of you should probably watch it too, to gain a modicum of understanding of just how quickly someone with a bit of training / practice can fire lever- or pump-action long guns. ---
**Author:** ![steadicam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@steadicam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steadicam)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2019, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/188 "2019-09-20T12:12:02Z")
Sam, How about a one for one trade in program for musket loaders? Better yet we issue a musket to to every man woman and child in the country paid for by the scrap metal from all the melted down bullets (have you see the price of lead and brass lately?)😛 As a Progressive socialist gun owner. I too question the efficacy of melting down weapons when there are millions and millions of them out there I can’t imagine getting them all. I would happily give up my guns if it would help. It seems to me that the prudent course is not try to reinvent the wheel . Canada’s number one sport is hunting yet they have a tiny fraction of the gun violence we do. Why not look at the vast majority of free societies and use their best practices. This problem has be largely solved elsewhere and our do-nothing attitude has ended up with mass shootings. Australia maybe is a good working model for us to start with? > [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > A six shooter can kill six people in a hurry. A double rig can kill twelve. Add in some speedloaders, and in about 3 seconds you can kill 6 more. Continue until your ammo runs out. > > An AR-15 cannot kill people any faster than a standard semi-automatic hunting rifle. A Ruger Mini-14 fires the same cartridge, and fires it just as fast. A standard M1911, probably the second most common American-owned handgun, can shoot 8 bullets as fast as you can pull the trigger. A Glock 19, the most popular handgun, can shoot as many as 6 to 33 bullets as fast as you can pull the trigger, depending on the magazine you have in it. > > Even the old western lever action rifle like the Winchester model 1873 has a 15 round magazine, and a skilled shooter can shoot the thing just about as fast as an AR-15. > > There is nothing special about an AR-15 when it comes to deadliness. The characteristics that make it unique are lightweight design, ease of repair, modular construction, and military features like a pistol grip, flash hider, bayonet lug, collapsing stock and other things that have nothing to do with lethality in a private setting. > > People who understand guns know these things, and that’s why they get frustrated by people who want to take them away while exhibiting complete ignorance about them. > > Also, the AR-15 and other assault rifles are not the problem with respect to gun violence. The vast majority of murders are committed with handguns, because handguns are concealable. It’s hard to walk up to a rival gang member with an AR-15 slung over your shoulder. It tends to be noticed. > > Anyone who understands the issues knows that banning AR-15’s wouldn’t make a dent in firearms fatalities. At best, you might cause some spree shooter to change his weapon of choice to any number of other firearms equally deadly, or even more deadly. In the meantime, you’d be stripping the constitutional rights from millions of people just so some people can feel good that they ‘did something’, without actually doing anything at all. > > Of course, we all know that once the AR’s are gone, you’ll just move on to the next weapon on your list of things to ban. Nobody believes that anti-gunners just want ‘common sense’ regulation. You hate guns, and you want them all gone. Beto just made that clear, when the left cheered his gun confiscation plan and none of the other major candidates for president pushed back against him. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2019, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/189 "2019-09-20T13:36:30Z")
> [@steadicam](#): > > Sam, How about a one for one trade in program for musket loaders? Better yet we issue a musket to to every man woman and child in the country paid for by the scrap metal from all the melted down bullets (have you see the price of lead and brass lately?)😛 > As a Progressive socialist gun owner. I too question the efficacy of melting down weapons when there are millions and millions of them out there I can’t imagine getting them all. I would happily give up my guns if it would help. It seems to me that the prudent course is not try to reinvent the wheel . Canada’s number one sport is hunting yet they have a tiny fraction of the gun violence we do. Why not look at the vast majority of free societies and use their best practices. This problem has be largely solved elsewhere and our do-nothing attitude has ended up with mass shootings. Australia maybe is a good working model for us to start with? Gun rights advocates don’t care about other countries and their approach to gun rights. American gun rights advocates believe that owning guns is a “natural right” that cannot be denied to them by the government, based on the constitution and various court case rulings. Also, Canada’s number one sport is hockey. Hunting is not a “sport”. Nothing that involves being still and waiting while being _vewy vewy quiet_ is a sport. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2019, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/190 "2019-09-20T14:23:08Z")
> [@Isamu](#): > > I watched 1 minute 23 seconds of that video. It basically says having bigger magazines is favorable for police officers and self-defenders. Did I miss anything? I think the main points were that smaller capacity magazines don’t slow a shooter down very much, and some twenty feet cannot be covered during magazine reload. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2019, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/191 "2019-09-20T15:16:14Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Gee, I just can’t figure out why we haven’t expended time and energy helping you guys write competent legislation to restrict our rights. It couldn’t have anything to do with hateful attitudes like this … could it? Well, as long as you feel your ‘rights’ are more important than people routinely getting gunned down on our streets and in our schools, then fuck yeah, you have it coming to you. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2019, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/192 "2019-09-20T15:23:33Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > People _drive_ around with that same capacity all the time. Unfortunately, we’ve created a society that’s extremely car-dependent. That’s not true of guns. FWIW, when we lefties advocate for better public transportation and fewer restrictions on dense building around subway stops and the like, so that more people can do without cars, ‘conservatives’ oppose us at every turn. Remember back when Obama’s stimulus passed, and it had funds for high-speed rail? Republican governors all over the place simply refused to take the money. Comparatively sane conservatives like George Will said public transportation was socialism. Chris Christie vetoed a new (and now, desperately needed) train tunnel under the Hudson to NYC. You have no right to talk about cars in this context. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2019, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/193 "2019-09-20T15:57:26Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Unfortunately, we’ve created a society that’s extremely car-dependent. That’s not true of guns. > > FWIW, when we lefties advocate for better public transportation and fewer restrictions on dense building around subway stops and the like, so that more people can do without cars, ‘conservatives’ oppose us at every turn. > > Remember back when Obama’s stimulus passed, and it had funds for high-speed rail? Republican governors all over the place simply refused to take the money. Comparatively sane conservatives like George Will said public transportation was socialism. Chris Christie vetoed a new (and now, desperately needed) train tunnel under the Hudson to NYC. > > You have no right to talk about cars in this context. I hate using public transportation. In NY however, it is probably less hassle to use it. ---
**Author:** ![control-z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/eada6e/32.png) [@control-z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/control-z)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2019, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/194 "2019-09-20T16:14:43Z")
> [@snfaulkner](#): > > Except, duh, cars are far more useful in many ways other than to kill. Killing is an unfortunate side effect that is constantly being studied and lessened. Unlike a certain tool that is designed from the beginning to kill… If you have ever gone target shooting you will probably appreciate firearms as more than just killing machines. ---
**Author:** ![MacTech](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c0e974/32.png) [@MacTech](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MacTech)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2019, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/195 "2019-09-20T16:19:32Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > I think the main points were that smaller capacity magazines don’t slow a shooter down very much, and some twenty feet cannot be covered during magazine reload. Exactly, in the linked video you have two shooters doing various demonstrations, one experienced shooter, and one novice, times are compared… They demonstrate with a Glock 19 semiauto pistol, an AR-15 rifle, revolvers, and a 1911 semiauto pistol\*\* with differing Mag capacities to show how little variation Mag capacity makes \*\* the 7 round capacity 1911, with Mag changes, was able to put 21 rounds on target in around 9.6 seconds, the fastest of the bunch, even faster than the “evil” AR… A “New York Reload” of a series of six shot revolvers was next fastest… Mag capacity is largely irrelavent ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2019, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/196 "2019-09-20T16:21:11Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Well, as long as you feel your ‘rights’ are more important than people routinely getting gunned down on our streets and in our schools, then fuck yeah, you have it coming to you. It’s all well and good to feel righteous in your use of petty insults against political opponents. That’s fine. Whatever. My point was that it’s moronic to then expect cooperation from the people you’re insulting. ---
**Author:** ![MacTech](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c0e974/32.png) [@MacTech](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MacTech)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2019, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/197 "2019-09-20T16:22:59Z")
Oh, forgot to add, the 1911 pistol design is over ONE HUNDRED years old, and is a semiautomatic… ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2019, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/198 "2019-09-20T16:24:48Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > … Remember back when Obama’s stimulus passed, and it had funds for high-speed rail? … Yes, I remember. That absolute shit-show of a failure had nothing to do with Republicans and everything to do with classic California liberal incompetence. > [@RTFirefly](#): > > … You have no right to talk about cars in this context. You can probably imagine how little value I place on what you think I have a “right to talk about” or not. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2019, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/199 "2019-09-20T16:40:05Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > It’s all well and good to feel righteous in your use of petty insults against political opponents. That’s fine. Whatever. My point was that it’s moronic to then expect cooperation from the people you’re insulting. Exactly. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2019, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/200 "2019-09-20T16:51:53Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > London banned all the guns. Then knives became the cool thing to have. Now people are being murdered with knives, and the government wants to ban scary looking knives and make it illegal to carry a knife on your person. > > You let them take away all the knives, and next they’ll come for your screwdrivers. Because it’s easier than admitting that you have large scale social problems of your own making, Firstly, “London” didn’t ban guns, Great Britain did (possibly the whole UK - I can’t remember what the situation in NI is off the top of my head). Secondly, “scary-looking knives” have been illegal to carry around for decades now in the UK. Funnily enough, once guns stopped being a material threat, police were then able to focus on knife crime, and that fell rapidly too. With guns and knives heavily restricted, homicide rates fell because fights were far less likely to become lethal (this led to a bulge in the assault rate because that’s where non-lethal fights were recorded). What _didn’t_ happen was a sudden surge of screwdriver-related assaults, because that’s just a paranoid fantasy. Admittedly knife crime is currently on the rise again, but this has absolutely nothing to do with guns being banned and everything to do with right-wingers cutting police numbers by 20,000. The fact that the “gun rights” contingent in the US - including Donald “stab stab” Trump - are blatantly misrepresenting this situation tells you everything you need to know: that they’re terrified that people might see that banning guns actually works. The gun problem in the US is certainly driven by “large scale social problems of our own making”, but prime among them is the fetishization of guns. > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Gee, I just can’t figure out why we haven’t expended time and energy helping you guys write competent legislation to restrict our rights. It couldn’t have anything to do with hateful attitudes like this … could it? When your response to repeated mass shootings is to continue chanting “thoughts and prayers!” and then keep working to loosen restrictions on gun ownership including to mentally ill people, it’s less a “hateful attitude” or “petty insults” and more an accurate description of reality. I’m sorry if that upsets you, but thank you for confirming that your fragile feelings are more important than trying to prevent the murder of schoolchildren. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333.md?page=11)