# O'Rourke on gun confiscation, then and now (a.k.a. Francis' flip-flop) **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [September 16, 2019, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333 "2019-09-16T19:10:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2019, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/201 "2019-09-20T17:19:23Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > London banned all the guns. Then knives became the cool thing to have. Now people are being murdered with knives, and the government wants to ban scary looking knives and make it illegal to carry a knife on your person. > > You let them take away all the knives, and next they’ll come for your screwdrivers. Because it’s easier than admitting that you have large scale social problems of your own making, To be fair, the expectation of banning guns isn’t that all violent crime will go away, it’s that the amount of casualties will go down. A murderous Brit with an AR-15 in London could mow down dozens of victims. A murderous Brit with a knife can only stab, most likely with fewer deaths and an inability to wound anyone who’s not in his immediate vicinity. And if all knives were banned and murderous Brits turned to screwdrivers next, the amount of casualties you can inflict with a screwdriver is even more limited. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2019, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/202 "2019-09-20T17:20:52Z")
…And now this has turned yet again into another generic gun-control debate thread… ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2019, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/203 "2019-09-20T17:24:37Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Hunting is not a “sport”. Nothing that involves being still and waiting while being _vewy vewy quiet_ is a sport. There are a dozen Olympic events that are shooting, so you are totally wrong. And you clearly have never hunted. The ignorance from the gun grabbers about the things they want to ban is astounding. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2019, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/204 "2019-09-20T17:27:12Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > The ignorance from the gun grabbers about the things they want to ban is astounding. It’s all well and good to feel righteous in your use of petty insults against political opponents. That’s fine. Whatever. But it’s unreasonable to then expect cooperation from the people you’re insulting. Or so I am reliably informed. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2019, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/205 "2019-09-20T17:28:24Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > It’s all well and good to feel righteous in your use of petty insults against political opponents. That’s fine. Whatever. But it’s unreasonable to then expect cooperation from the people you’re insulting. > > Or so I am reliably informed. I don’t recall anyone asking for / expecting your cooperation. Did I miss that somewhere? ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2019, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/206 "2019-09-20T17:32:11Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I don’t recall anyone asking for / expecting your cooperation. Did I miss that somewhere? Different thread, but **DrDeth** has a [little proposal regarding mass shootings](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=882216) going at the moment he would like our support for. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2019, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/207 "2019-09-20T17:32:36Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > The gun problem in the US is certainly driven by “large scale social problems of our own making”, but prime among them is the fetishization of guns. > When your response to repeated mass shootings is to continue chanting “thoughts and prayers!” and then keep working to loosen restrictions on gun ownership including to mentally ill people, it’s less a “hateful attitude” or “petty insults” and more an accurate description of reality. I’m sorry if that upsets you, but thank you for confirming that your fragile feelings are more important than trying to prevent the murder of schoolchildren. The only “fetishism” I see here is those that fetishize their hatred and phobia of guns, often caused by ignorance. No one is trying to "loosen restrictions on gun ownership … to mentally ill people, ". And other suggestions have been made but the gun grabbers dont care. The gun grabbers dont care about trying to prevent the murder of schoolchildren- they just want to ban guns as they have Hoplophobia. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2019, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/208 "2019-09-20T17:39:54Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > It’s all well and good to feel righteous in your use of petty insults against political opponents. That’s fine. Whatever. But it’s unreasonable to then expect cooperation from the people you’re insulting. > > . The hypocrisy, it burns. _“I regard the lives of my fellow citizens as being more important than whatever those needs might be…they are objectively pro-massacre…Well, as long as you feel your ‘rights’ are more important than people routinely getting gunned down on our streets and in our schools, then fuck yeah, you have it coming to you…”_. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2019, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/209 "2019-09-20T17:46:01Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > The only “fetishism” I see here is those that fetishize their hatred and phobia of guns, often caused by ignorance. I completely agree that this is the only “fetishism” you see. > [@](#): > > And other suggestions have been made but the gun grabbers dont care. The gun grabbers dont care about trying to prevent the murder of schoolchildren- they just want to ban guns as they have Hoplophobia. This is incoherent nonsense. > [@DrDeth](#): > > The hypocrisy, it burns. Given that I was closely paraphrasing something another poster on your side of the issue recently wrote in this thread just before your own contribution on the matter, yes, the hypocrisy does burn. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2019, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/210 "2019-09-20T18:18:04Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > It’s all well and good to feel righteous in your use of petty insults against political opponents. That’s fine. Whatever. My point was that it’s moronic to then expect cooperation from the people you’re insulting. I don’t ‘feel righteous’; I’m stating a straightforward relationship. Not very sorry if you feel insulted by the truth. And no, there’s nothing moronic to be telling hard truths in the present those I _had hoped for_ cooperation from in the past (_expecting_ was too strong a word even then), when there’s not the least sign of the remotest possibility of such cooperation in the present or foreseeable future. > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Yes, I remember. That absolute shit-show of a failure had nothing to do with Republicans and everything to do with classic California liberal incompetence. Rick Scott, John Kasich, and I believe I already mentioned Chris Christie: I’m sure they’d be surprised to be called California _anything_. > [@](#): > > You can probably imagine how little value I place on what you think I have a “right to talk about” or not. Well, I didn’t think you had a response that involved the actual merits. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2019, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/211 "2019-09-20T19:28:33Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > There are a dozen Olympic events that are shooting, so you are totally wrong. > > And you clearly have never hunted. > > The ignorance from the gun grabbers about the things they want to ban is astounding. 1. Shooting events in the Olympics are not hunting. 2. Biathlons in the Winter Olympics is a sport and damned hard one but they are not out of breath from the shooting. 3. Straight up shooting events in the Olympics are events, sporting events, but not a sport in the sense of hockey being a favorite sport of Canada. Which is what I was talking about and not entirely seriously, I might add. Though I didn’t think I’d have to. I’m not trying to gun grab the Olympics. You can relax. ---
**Author:** ![REssence](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e36b37/32.png) [@REssence](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/REssence)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2019, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/212 "2019-09-23T18:32:03Z")
Reading all this, it occurs to me- why are we here playing the same old game, trying to figure out exactly what a Dem politician means to say, and why? I think it’s a fair (and very important) question to ask at this point: why is it so taken for granted that Dem politicians always have to leave so much to the imagination? This behaviour, easily observable for decades, seems to be a problem hiding in plain sight - while it’s become generally recognised that Dems have a great deal of difficulty ‘getting their message across’ to the electorate, I believe the problem goes deeper. In the case of Beto’s public statements here, would the ‘crown fall off his head,’ or would he really risk losing that much support if he actually made it clear where he’s coming from, and if he simply changed his mind after the El paso shootings, could he not just say so? It seems that the Dems, including Beto, are still adhering to an old playbook that dictates that this type of politesse-oriented behaviour, which simply doesn’t work anymore. The GOP has the luxury - and has, over the years, exploited it like ‘playing a fine violin’ - of saying exactly what their supporters and potential believers want to hear, with no equivocation necessary (while knowing how inept the Dems are at effectively refuting them). This includes, by now, everything short of saying that the earth is flat- and they’re really not very far from that, are they? In the case of their poisonous stands on climate matters for instance, they will, hopefully, be properly judged in the not too distant future- in 2020 if we’re lucky, or Dems quickly wake up and learn something about effectively communicating in these times. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333.md?page=10)