# O'Rourke on gun confiscation, then and now (a.k.a. Francis' flip-flop) **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [September 16, 2019, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333 "2019-09-16T19:10:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/21 "2019-09-16T23:28:05Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I think you’re trying too hard to speak for “most Americans” here. [Most Americans don’t agree with Beto “Hell Yes, We’re Going to Take Your AR-15’s” O’Rourke](https://news.gallup.com/poll/1645/guns.aspx): October 1st 2018, before the recent spate of shootings. Try [this](https://thehill.com/homenews/news/457481-two-thirds-support-assault-weapons-ban-fox-news-poll) more recent one instead. > [@](#): > > The majority of Americans support a ban on assault weapons in the wake of two recent mass shootings that killed a total of 31 people, a new Fox News poll found. > > Two-thirds of Americans favor a ban on assault rifles and semi-automatic weapons as a measure to reduce gun violence, according to a poll released Wednesday. It is a 7-point increase from when the question was asked in March 2018. Or[this](https://www.politico.com/story/2019/08/07/poll-most-voters-support-assault-weapons-ban-1452586)one > [@](#): > > The poll found that nearly 70 percent of all voters would back such a ban. Support for an assault-weapons ban was higher, at 86 percent, among Democrats, who have been pushing for new restrictions on the firearms in the wake of two mass shootings over the weekend. > > Republicans typically are more reticent to support new gun restrictions, and Trump campaigned in 2016 on his strong support for the Second Amendment. But the poll found that 55 percent of GOP voters were comfortable with banning assault weapons, and 54 percent said they would support stricter gun laws more generally. Ninety percent said they would back universal background checks for gun sales. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2019, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/22 "2019-09-17T00:01:14Z")
Finally, the gun nuts’ strategy has backfired. For too long, they’ve spewed platitudes like “thoughts and prayers” and “now is not the time for politics”. It’s a dark mark on our society that it took so many deaths, but the weight of all that suffering is finally reaching a turning point. If the democrats do well during the next election cycle, we’ll get much harsher gun control than ever would have been possible in the past. If, on the other hand, the Republicans gerrymander their way to victory again, they’ll hold things off a few more years… But when the pendulum does swing the other way, it’s going to swing HARD. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2019, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/23 "2019-09-17T00:17:37Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > By the way, the AR-15 is the most popular rifle in America. As such, it is absolutely constitutionally protected. Good to know that the right to massacre one’s fellow citizens is Constitutionally protected. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2019, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/24 "2019-09-17T00:19:27Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Good to know that the right to massacre one’s fellow citizens is Constitutionally protected. It’s not, but I’m pretty sure you already knew that. The right of the people to keep and bear arms, however, is. ---
**Author:** ![Lamoral](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lamoral/32/16078_2.png) [@Lamoral](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamoral)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2019, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/25 "2019-09-17T00:24:29Z")
I’m less interested in the question of whether it’s right or wrong for people to be allowed to own “assault weapons”, and more interested in how exactly a ban on their ownership would actually play out “on the ground”, as it were. Not just their sale and manufacture, but also their ownership, which is the type of ban that O’Rourke has implied with his remarks. I get that the government would offer to buy them back. How many owners would actually turn them in and take the reward? For all of those who don’t, how is the government going to enforce the ban? Are they going to go through the sale receipts of all the gun stores for purchases of AR/AK type rifles and go track down the people who bought them? Are they going to have cops go knocking on doors? Kicking down doors? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2019, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/26 "2019-09-17T00:25:28Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > In one night, Beto O’Rourke destroyed decades of perception control by anti-gunners. Did it matter? After Sandy Hook, after the slaughter of 20 first-graders, the pro-slaughter party wouldn’t even go along with closing the background check loopholes. What did we lose? Not a damned thing. What did we gain? The first major public statement of something that’s transparently obvious: there are too many AR-15s and the like out there to stop the massacres just by banning their future sales. > [@](#): > > This is a setback for gun control. This is a setback for the pro-slaughter faction in America. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2019, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/27 "2019-09-17T00:33:33Z")
Is “Francis” supposed to be a girly-sounding name, or something? It was obvious why Obamaphobes leaned on the “Hussein,” but I’m having a tougher time understanding the pejorative value of this one. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2019, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/28 "2019-09-17T01:26:42Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > Is “Francis” supposed to be a girly-sounding name, or something? It was obvious why Obamaphobes leaned on the “Hussein,” but I’m having a tougher time understanding the pejorative value of this one. I think you’re right. Also, a lot of Republicans (e.g., the death-threatening Rep. Briscoe Cain III and Sen. Rafael Edward Cruz) make a point of calling O’Rourke “Robert Francis” rather than his lifelong nickname of “Beto” in order to suggest that he’s somehow “faking” being Latino or something. But yeah, I think emphasizing the “Francis” is supposed to denigrate his maleness by suggesting the girl’s name “Frances”, as well as presumably the effete land of France, abomination of red-blooded patriotic conservatives throughout the land. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2019, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/29 "2019-09-17T01:41:58Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > It’s not, but I’m pretty sure you already knew that. The right of the people to keep and bear arms, however, is. [From here](https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/03/second-amendment-text-context/555101/). > [@](#): > > **Like most rights, the right secured by the Second Amendment is not unlimited.** From Blackstone through the 19th-century cases, commentators and courts routinely explained that **the right was not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose.** For example, the majority of the 19th-century courts to consider the question held that prohibitions on carrying concealed weapons were lawful under the Second Amendment or state analogues. Although we do not undertake an exhaustive historical analysis today of the full scope of the Second Amendment, nothing in our opinion should be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms. > > From the _Heller_ decision. ---
**Author:** ![kirkrapine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/7ea924/32.png) [@kirkrapine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kirkrapine)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2019, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/30 "2019-09-17T01:42:45Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Or has he got his finger on the pulse of the bleeding hearts of liberals, giving voice to your deepest desires? The latter. No civilian has any legitimate use for an automatic or semi-automatic rifle. That’s much more firepower than you’ll ever need for home defense, and it would be unsporting to use such a weapon to hunt. And, when you think about it, nobody really has any use for more than **one** gun. A single hunting rifle or shotgun will do for your home-defense needs. But some people stockpile arsenals – why?! Antique-gun collectors I can understand, it’s a hobby, makes for a nice display in your den; but for actual use, well, you can’t fire more than one gun at a time, can you? N.B.: I am here assuming, and I hope all here will agree, that home defense and hunting are the only legitimate uses for firearms. Resisting public authorities is not. ---
**Author:** ![kirkrapine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/7ea924/32.png) [@kirkrapine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kirkrapine)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2019, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/31 "2019-09-17T01:47:25Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > You don’t think it’s got anything to do with the different constituencies he’s trying to calibrate his message to appeal to: Texans then and dem primary voters now? Well, he knows he won’t get the nomination, and he is almost certainly planning in the future to run for senator from or governor of Texas. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2019, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/32 "2019-09-17T01:49:04Z")
> [@kirkrapine](#): > > … No civilian has any legitimate use for an automatic or semi-automatic rifle. … Nonsense. There are lots of legitimate uses for them. Your ignorance of that fact does not alter it. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2019, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/33 "2019-09-17T01:53:33Z")
> [@kirkrapine](#): > > … I am here assuming, and I hope all here will agree, that home defense and hunting are the only legitimate uses for firearms. … No, we don’t all agree. For starters, do you recognize the legitimacy of self defense away from one’s home, out in public? ---
**Author:** ![kirkrapine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/7ea924/32.png) [@kirkrapine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kirkrapine)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2019, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/34 "2019-09-17T01:54:28Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > By the way, the AR-15 is the most popular rifle in America. As such, it is absolutely constitutionally protected. :dubious: “As such?” Quite a nonsequitur. Marijuana is the third-most (after alcohol and tobacco) popular drug in America. That does not make it constitutionally protected. Anyway, I think handguns are far, far more popular than AR-15s, going by the numbers in private hands (and the numbers involved in firearms-related deaths). And if we’re speaking of rifles alone, I think AR-15s are probably less popular than non-automatic rifles – which are you likelier to encounter in a deer camp? ---
**Author:** ![kirkrapine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/7ea924/32.png) [@kirkrapine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kirkrapine)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2019, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/35 "2019-09-17T01:56:30Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > No, we don’t all agree. For starters, do you recognize the legitimacy of self defense away from one’s home, out in public? I pretty much equate that with “home defense.” Also, the need to go armed away from home can be obviated by avoiding certain neighborhoods, unless you happen to live in one. And even then, you don’t need an automatic rifle. Only soldiers and sometimes cops need automatic rifles. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2019, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/36 "2019-09-17T02:00:37Z")
> [@kirkrapine](#): > > I pretty much equate that with “home defense.” Also, the need to go armed away from home can be obviated by avoiding certain neighborhoods, unless you happen to live in one. And even then, you don’t need an automatic rifle. … Do you understand that people usually choose very different types of firearms for concealed carry vs home defense? A rifle such as an AR-15 is a poor fit for the former but an excellent choice for the latter. ---
**Author:** ![kirkrapine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/7ea924/32.png) [@kirkrapine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kirkrapine)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2019, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/37 "2019-09-17T02:05:24Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Do you understand that people usually choose very different types of firearms for concealed carry vs home defense? A rifle such as an AR-15 is a poor fit for the former but an excellent choice for the latter. Why would you ever need an automatic rifle for home defense? Just the noise of cocking your shotgun should suffice to scare off a home intruder. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2019, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/38 "2019-09-17T02:11:23Z")
> [@kirkrapine](#): > > Why would you ever need an automatic rifle for home defense? Just the noise of cocking your shotgun should suffice to scare off a home intruder. I didn’t say anyone “need[s] an automatic rifle”, I said a semi-automatic one, such as an AR-15 is an excellent choice for home defense, but a poor one for concealed-carry duties. Were you aware of that prior to posting “… when you think about it, nobody really has any use for more than **one** gun.”? ---
**Author:** ![snfaulkner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snfaulkner/32/433_2.png) [@snfaulkner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snfaulkner)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2019, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/39 "2019-09-17T02:26:51Z")
You need the range of an ar-15 to shoot across your living room? Or do you sit up in a guard tower waiting for someone to trespass onto your compound? ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2019, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/40 "2019-09-17T02:36:22Z")
> [@kirkrapine](#): > > :dubious: “As such?” Quite a nonsequitur. Marijuana is the third-most (after alcohol and tobacco) popular drug in America. That does not make it constitutionally protected. > > Anyway, I think handguns are far, far more popular than AR-15s, going by the numbers in private hands (and the numbers involved in firearms-related deaths). And if we’re speaking of rifles alone, I think AR-15s are probably less popular than non-automatic rifles – which are you likelier to encounter in a deer camp? Do you think the AR-15 platform rifle that is typically owned by millions of Americans is automatic? I’m trying to prove the depth or your ignorance. Basically everything you’ve opined relating to firearms has been mistaken or wrong in some fashion. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333.md?page=3)