# O'Rourke on gun confiscation, then and now (a.k.a. Francis' flip-flop) **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [September 16, 2019, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333 "2019-09-16T19:10:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2019, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/41 "2019-09-17T03:26:13Z")
At the very least Beto may have reversed a downward trend in sales and PAC donations on the gunfan side. > [@kirkrapine](#): > > > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > > > Or has he got his finger on the pulse of the bleeding hearts of liberals, giving voice to your deepest desires? > > The latter. Speaking for yourself, of course. I am all aboard for reproductive rights, LGBQT equality, mandated maternity leave, organized labor, universal health care, science-based climate policy and cultural diversity and yet I do not find ownership of an AR/AK pattern weapon by a lay citizen to be _per se_ offensive or harmful. Now, OTOH talk about some of the _owners_… and heck, sure, they include a cohort that should not be trusted to keep and bear soup ladles, never mind firearms, and I’d easily support making it hard for them to get their hands on one even if it means I just made it twice as expensive for my sensible neighbors. But as someone said upthread, maybe if we could have seen some willingness to address _that_? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2019, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/42 "2019-09-17T03:41:47Z")
> [@Ukulele\_Ike](#): > > **Hurricane Ditka:**. I’m a comin’ to GRAB YOUR GUNS. Fear me. That is precisely what Beto said. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2019, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/43 "2019-09-17T03:46:04Z")
> [@CaptMurdock](#): > > Was this before or after the number and severity of mass shootings in the U.S. increased almost exponentially? > . Caused by the media, glorifying the shooters. Studies by sociologist have proven this. I have cited them four times in various threads. There were plenty of guns before, it’s not guns. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2019, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/44 "2019-09-17T03:50:07Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > October 1st 2018, before the recent spate of shootings. > > Try [this](https://thehill.com/homenews/news/457481-two-thirds-support-assault-weapons-ban-fox-news-poll) more recent one instead. > Or[this](https://www.politico.com/story/2019/08/07/poll-most-voters-support-assault-weapons-ban-1452586)one Generally, most people would think those bans are like the previous ban, a ban on selling or importing. Not a door to door confiscation. Most people are in favor of a ban on selling. I read the polls- the questions are not clear. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2019, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/45 "2019-09-17T03:55:17Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Do you think the AR-15 platform rifle that is typically owned by millions of Americans is automatic? I’m trying to **prove** the depth or your ignorance. Basically everything you’ve opined relating to firearms has been mistaken or wrong in some fashion. Heh, that should have said “probe”, not “prove”. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2019, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/46 "2019-09-17T04:00:46Z")
> [@kirkrapine](#): > > The latter. No civilian has any legitimate use for an automatic or semi-automatic rifle. That’s much more firepower than you’ll ever need for home defense, and it would be unsporting to use such a weapon to hunt. > > And, when you think about it, nobody really has any use for more than **one** gun. A single hunting rifle or shotgun will do for your home-defense needs. But some people stockpile arsenals – why?! Antique-gun collectors I can understand, it’s a hobby, makes for a nice display in your den; but for actual use, well, you can’t fire more than one gun at a time, can you? > > N.B.: I am here assuming, and I hope all here will agree, that home defense and hunting are the only legitimate uses for firearms. Resisting public authorities is not. You know, you have repeated this statement on several threads, and you have been corrected each time, yet you continue. More or less civilians cant own automatic weapons in the USA. There is no big difference in “firepower” between a pump, lever action, bolt action gun, or semi-auto, all can be fired pretty fast. Watch “The Rifleman” sometime. And of course Olympic shooters own quite a few guns, in fact the Olympics require several types of guns for their events. Most Police officers own several and carry two. There’s also sports, skeet & trap shooting, Target shooting, collecting, cowboy action shooting, black power mtn man events, and many more. Again the ignorance about guns by those who want to ban them is amazing. And you have no excuse. You have had this explained to you. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2019, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/47 "2019-09-17T04:04:01Z")
> [@kirkrapine](#): > > :dubious: “As such?” Quite a nonsequitur. Marijuana is the third-most (after alcohol and tobacco) popular drug in America. That does not make it constitutionally protected. > > Anyway, I think handguns are far, far more popular than AR-15s, going by the numbers in private hands (and the numbers involved in firearms-related deaths). And if we’re speaking of rifles alone, I think AR-15s are probably less popular than non-automatic rifles – which are you likelier to encounter in a deer camp? Again the ignorance about guns by those who want to ban them is amazing. He was talking about a SCOTUS ruling. The AR 15 is in “common use”. Well, sure, since you are comparing 10000+ mades & models of handguns with one made of a rifle. :rolleyes: There are several very popular semi-automatic deer rifles. And no one hunts with a “automatic rifle” since they are effectively illegal. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2019, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/48 "2019-09-17T04:05:18Z")
> [@kirkrapine](#): > > Why would you ever need an automatic rifle for home defense? Just the noise of cocking your shotgun should suffice to scare off a home intruder. “automatic rifles” are more or less illegal in the USA. You mean “semi-automatic”, perhaps. Again the ignorance about guns by those who want to ban them is amazing. ---
**Author:** ![MartinLane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f17d59/32.png) [@MartinLane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MartinLane)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2019, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/49 "2019-09-17T04:17:31Z")
> [@kirkrapine](#): > > The latter. No civilian has any legitimate use for an automatic or semi-automatic rifle. That’s much more firepower than you’ll ever need for home defense, and it would be unsporting to use such a weapon to hunt. No one has ever been able to explain to me why a semi-auto is unsporting compared to a bolt action or single shot rifle. How does that work? > [@kirkrapine](#): > > And, when you think about it, nobody really has any use for more than **one** gun. A single hunting rifle or shotgun will do for your home-defense needs. What about hunters? Can’t hunt most birds with a rifle. Using a shotgun on big game is usually not so hot either. > [@kirkrapine](#): > > But some people stockpile arsenals – why?! Antique-gun collectors I can understand, it’s a hobby, makes for a nice display in your den; but for actual use, well, you can’t fire more than one gun at a time, can you? I might wants various types of firearms for different kinds of hunting? Modern and primitive seasons exist. Handgun hunting is also a thing. > [@kirkrapine](#): > > N.B.: I am here assuming, and I hope all here will agree, that home defense and hunting are the only legitimate uses for firearms. Resisting public authorities is not. What about informal and formal target shooting? Those Olympic and service rifle competitors didn’t get that good by hunting and shooting burglars. All I see in your post is extreme ignorance, it is not an asset at all ---
**Author:** ![MartinLane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f17d59/32.png) [@MartinLane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MartinLane)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2019, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/50 "2019-09-17T04:29:29Z")
> [@kirkrapine](#): > > Why would you ever need an automatic rifle for home defense? Just the noise of cocking your shotgun should suffice to scare off a home intruder. That is complete nonsense. It if were true, then people would just download an app for their phone for the sound effect to defend themselves. Does it sound silly to you now? ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2019, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/51 "2019-09-17T05:14:06Z")
> [@kirkrapine](#): > > :dubious: “As such?” Quite a nonsequitur. Marijuana is the third-most (after alcohol and tobacco) popular drug in America. That does not make it constitutionally protected. That’s because Marijuana ownership is not the subject of the _Heller_ decision, which only allows for ”prohibiting the carrying of dangerous and unusual weapons” such as strictly military arms like the M-16, while completely protecting the “usual type of weapon kept in the home.” Since the AR-15 is the most common rifle you will find in an American home, and this was true when Heller was written, itis clearly a protected firearm. > [@](#): > > Anyway, I think handguns are far, far more popular than AR-15s, going by the numbers in private hands (and the numbers involved in firearms-related deaths). And if we’re speaking of rifles alone, I think AR-15s are probably less popular than non-automatic rifles – which are you likelier to encounter in a deer camp? While official sales numbers are hard to come by because AR’s are sold by a number of manufacturers, it’s a generally accepted fact that the AR-15 is the most popular rifle in America. Google it. ---
**Author:** ![not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_what_you_d_expect/32/3246_2.png) [@not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_what_you_d_expect)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2019, 10:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/52 "2019-09-17T10:56:34Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > Is “Francis” supposed to be a girly-sounding name, or something? It was obvious why Obamaphobes leaned on the “Hussein,” but I’m having a tougher time understanding the pejorative value of this one. I thought it was a reference to Robert Francis Kennedy. Can’t you see the humor? ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2019, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/53 "2019-09-17T11:18:38Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > Is “Francis” supposed to be a girly-sounding name, or something? It was obvious why Obamaphobes leaned on the “Hussein,” but I’m having a tougher time understanding the pejorative value of this one. The GOP are playing up the “he’s a fake Mexican” angle in their current smear materials, pretending that he’s only adopted the name “Beto” (and presumably the ability to speak Spanish) to pander to all those illegal Hispanics coming over here to vote, despite evidence that he’s gone by “Beto” since childhood. The fact that they’ve ramped up the smear campaign at all does suggest that they do indeed “fear him” - or at least that his message might resonate, much as they did with AOC. ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2019, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/54 "2019-09-17T13:23:21Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Please do say it more often. For decades, Democrats have worked against the perception that any regulation of guns was just another step on the slippery slope to confiscation. Every time a Republican made that claim, the Democrats would rush out and say, “No, No! We don’t want to take anyone’s guns! We just want a modicum of common-sense regulation!”. And that’s worked, as about 70% of Americans are in favor of ‘common sense’ gun regulations. They just differ on what those are. > > In one night, Beto O’Rourke destroyed decades of perception control by anti-gunners. Now, any time a Democrat says they don’t want to ban guns, someone will hold up a Beto T-shirt that says, “Hell yes I’m going to take your AR-15”, or quote the many Democrats who came out in favor. > > By the way, the AR-15 is the most popular rifle in America. As such, it is absolutely constitutionally protected. Beto might as well have made up a T-shirt that said, “Hell yes I plan to violate my oath to defend the Constitution!” > > This is a setback for gun control. Or perhaps O’Rourke in doing this will give all the other spineless Democrats a chance to say, “hey, that guy over there? He’s the gun-grabber, not me. When did I ever suggest taking away guns? You know, something that might actually do something about the problem. Nah, stick with me, and you can rest assured that I’ll only call for some background checks here, or some red flag alerts there, and a bunch of other things that will only have a minimal effect.” Of course, they won’t come right out and say the part about these things not really helping much. They’ll pretend that they are actually addressing the issue. Sorry for using your comment as a jumping off point on the Dems (:)), btw, but I’m serious. As for your claim about the AR-15, it is clear, or at least I thought it was, and still is, that some guns can be regulated. That is, wanting to ban AR-15s is not necessarily a violation of the Constitution, and especially not just because they are the most popular. Is this incorrect? ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2019, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/55 "2019-09-17T13:39:24Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I didn’t say anyone “need[s] an automatic rifle”, I said a semi-automatic one, such as an AR-15 is an excellent choice for home defense, but a poor one for concealed-carry duties. Were you aware of that prior to posting “… when you think about it, nobody really has any use for more than **one** gun.”? Please tell me you are talking about “duties” in the sense of the police and other \*trained \*law enforcement officers, and not every concealed-carry lunkhead out there who thinks he’s John Fucking Wayne. Private citizens with concealed-carry permits are scary. Who needs to go to Kroger’s with a gun? ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2019, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/56 "2019-09-17T13:50:23Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Do you think the AR-15 platform rifle that is typically owned by millions of Americans is _ **automatic** _? My bold and italics. I see this type of response all the time, and I wish to God gun-control advocates would take note. They need to be completely knowledgeable about the terms they use, so legitimate questions like yours are nullified. And on that note, we need a term for a [gun](https://www.npr.org/2019/08/08/748665339/the-pistol-that-looks-like-a-rifle-the-dayton-shooters-gun) like the Dayton killer used, that allows one to kill 9 people and injure dozens more in 30 seconds. A term that is so suggestive of this type of firepower, that terms like automatic or semi-automatic, or whatever, become completely irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2019, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/57 "2019-09-17T14:04:24Z")
Two things: 1. It seems entirely possible to me that Beto O’Rourke changed his mind on gun laws after what happened with the recent shooting in his home state. So, I find your (the OP) asking “was he lying then or lying now” to be pretty bad well-poisoning and not in good faith. That seems to be a terrible way to start an honest debate – did you mean to post this in the Pit? 2. OP, I thought you had agreed that name-calling was counterproductive and were looking to raise the tone of discussions in the debate forums (GD and Elections). To that end, what’s with calling him Francis? He doesn’t go by that and, honestly, I had no idea who you were talking about until I read further into the thread. Is that some sort of right-wing smear tactic? I don’t get it. Anyway, I think you would have been better served avoiding that, if your goal was to have an honest discussion, rather than a Pit rant. Of course, I’m not a moderator, so you do you, but you seemed receptive to raising the general tone in the past. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2019, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/58 "2019-09-17T14:17:55Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > … did you mean to post this in the Pit? No > [@RitterSport](#): > > … what’s with calling him Francis? He doesn’t go by that and, honestly, I had no idea who you were talking about until I read further into the thread. … I liked the alliteration with flip-flop. How long did it take you to figure out who the OP was referring to? The first four letters are “Beto” and the first word in the title is “O’Rourke”. As always, your feedback is appreciated and most welcome. ---
**Author:** ![Chingon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chingon/32/17645_2.png) [@Chingon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chingon)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2019, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/59 "2019-09-17T14:18:36Z")
Calling him Francis is how they like to troll these days. Kind of like calling Obama Barry or Muller Robbie. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2019, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/60 "2019-09-17T14:24:57Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > No > I liked the alliteration with flip-flop. How long did it take you to figure out who the OP was referring to? The first four letters are “Beto” and the first word in the title is “O’Rourke”. > > As always, your feedback is appreciated and most welcome. This will be my last post here, because I think the first post poisoned the well with the assumption that Beto was lying either before or now. However, to address your question, I couldn’t figure out who Francis was and why he was mentioned in the title. I don’t know the middle names of all the candidates (or any? I’m trying to think of a middle name of any of them). I find this kind of misnaming to be childish, and that’s the other reason I won’t be back here. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333.md?page=4)