# O'Rourke on gun confiscation, then and now (a.k.a. Francis' flip-flop) **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [September 16, 2019, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333 "2019-09-16T19:10:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2019, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/61 "2019-09-17T14:29:56Z")
The reason for calling Beto ‘Robert Francis’ is to, well, mock him. It’s like how people called Mitt Romney “Willard” during the 2012 election. Trying to take his more obscure name. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2019, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/62 "2019-09-17T14:36:28Z")
> [@Fiddle\_Peghead](#): > > Please tell me you are talking about “duties” in the sense of the police and other \*trained \*law enforcement officers, and not every concealed-carry lunkhead out there who thinks he’s John Fucking Wayne. … No, I am not. > [@Fiddle\_Peghead](#): > > … Private citizens with concealed-carry permits are scary. … Respectfully, that’s a you problem. > [@Fiddle\_Peghead](#): > > …Who needs to go to Kroger’s with a gun? I don’t know about Kroger’s, but I’m aware of a bunch of Wal-Mart shoppers that needed one a few weeks ago. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2019, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/63 "2019-09-17T14:36:44Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > The reason for calling Beto ‘Robert Francis’ is to, well, mock him. It’s like how people called Mitt Romney “Willard” during the 2012 election. Trying to take his more obscure name. Is opening with mocking the best way to comport oneself in a debate? If your goal in the debate you are starting is to influence the opinions of others is that the most productive way to do so? If the goal is not to influence opinions, then what is the goal of this thread? ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2019, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/64 "2019-09-17T14:38:51Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I don’t know about Kroger’s, but I’m aware of a bunch of Wal-Mart shoppers that needed one a few weeks ago. So you think the solution to mass shootings is to create shoot out at the OK corrall type scenarios at Walmart? Just have everyone open fire and hope they are shooting at the actual bad guy with the gun and not one of the other good guys with guns? Why do so many people think life is an action movie and they are the hero? ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Kearsen1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen1)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2019, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/65 "2019-09-17T14:52:03Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > Is “Francis” supposed to be a girly-sounding name, or something? It was obvious why Obamaphobes leaned on the “Hussein,” but I’m having a tougher time understanding the pejorative value of this one. Francis is always going to sound funny for me now, since Deadpool came out. ---
**Author:** ![CaptMurdock](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/captmurdock/32/11736_2.png) [@CaptMurdock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CaptMurdock)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2019, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/66 "2019-09-17T14:58:00Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Caused by the media, glorifying the shooters. Studies by sociologist have proven this. I have cited them four times in various threads. > > There were plenty of guns before, it’s not guns. I want to see cites that “the media”, after these mass shootings, praised these shooters as REAL AMERICAN HEROES. It’s not guns. It’s the irresponsible fuckwads who can’t be trusted to own guns, and the spineless enablers who hide behind 200-year-old ink on paper who would rather see schoolchildren be gunned down in the classroom than actually do something besides Thinking and Praying. Freedom comes with responsibility. Can’t handle the responsibility, can’t have the freedom. Welcome to adulthood, cupcake. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2019, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/67 "2019-09-17T15:03:55Z")
> [@Kearsen1](#): > > Francis is always going to sound funny for me now, since Deadpool came out. Well you’re in for another good chuckle if you watch _Stripes_. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2019, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/68 "2019-09-17T15:23:13Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Please do say it more often. > > … > > This is a setback for gun control. Seems to me, the biggest setback for gun control is electing politicians who have whored themselves out to the NRA and gun manufacturer lobby. Another setback is the completely ineffective way that Democrats talk about gun control. Saying, “Nobody is coming for your guns”, is a bullshit denial and no pro-gun voter buys it. They ought to come up with a concise and honest platform about what roles they believe guns ought to play in modern american society. Above all, they ought to make it clear that reduction in guns will be done by policy and laws with generational long term impact; not by government storm troopers knocking down doors in the middle of the night. Develop the talking points playbook and make sure every Democratic candidate knows the fucking chorus by heart. None of this all over the map namby-pamby bullshit that Republicans cherry pick and use against them. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2019, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/69 "2019-09-17T15:41:42Z")
There is a bit of a tension between claiming that you knew all along that Democrats all secretly want to take your guns and claiming that Beto saying he wants confiscation is a game-changer on the politics of guns. I cannot prove it, but I suspect that the truth of the matter is that most voters who intensely prioritize gun ownership already believe that most Democrats favor confiscation of semi-automatic rifles with large magazines, and also that Democratic politicians as an aggregate do not secretly favor such confiscation, and nothing Beto says changes that. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2019, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/70 "2019-09-17T16:09:56Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > The GOP are playing up the “he’s a fake Mexican” angle in their current smear materials, pretending that he’s only adopted the name “Beto” (and presumably the ability to speak Spanish) to pander to all those illegal Hispanics coming over here to vote, despite evidence that he’s gone by “Beto” since childhood. The fact that they’ve ramped up the smear campaign at all does suggest that they do indeed “fear him” - or at least that his message might resonate, much as they did with AOC. Except that I havent seen a word of this. Maybe it’s in Texas? Only smear machine I read and hear is vs Biden. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2019, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/71 "2019-09-17T16:14:48Z")
> [@Fiddle\_Peghead](#): > > Or perhaps O’Rourke in doing this will give all the other spineless Democrats a chance to say, "hey, that guy over there? He’s the gun-grabber, not me. When did I ever suggest taking away guns? You know, something that might actually do something about the problem. … > As for your claim about the AR-15, it is clear, or at least I thought it was, and still is, that some guns can be regulated. That is, wanting to ban AR-15s is not necessarily a violation of the Constitution, and especially not just because they are the most popular. Is this incorrect? Banning the AR15 wont do anything about "the problem. " If it’s violent crime you are talking about as “the problem” AR15s (or any rifle) are used extremely rarely in crime/murders. If it’s mass shootings- not only are there plenty of other weapons that would do just as well, but sociologists have shown it’s the media as the media glorifies the shooters. It’s not guns. Indeed “some guns” can. But Heller seemed to make it clear that guns in common use can’t be. Fully auto weapons, sawed off shotguns and other guns which have been banned for a while can continue to be banned under Heller. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2019, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/72 "2019-09-17T16:17:54Z")
> [@Fiddle\_Peghead](#): > > Please tell me you are talking about “duties” in the sense of the police and other \*trained \*law enforcement officers, and not every concealed-carry lunkhead out there who thinks he’s John Fucking Wayne. Private citizens with concealed-carry permits are scary. Who needs to go to Kroger’s with a gun? There has been almost no crimes committed by citizens with CCW permits. You know the permits that require the kind of background checks , training and etc that the Gun grabbers have been wanted for all gun owners? CCW holders are about the safest gun owners you could have. People get robbed on the way to the store, women get raped coming out of stores and etc all the time. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2019, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/73 "2019-09-17T16:20:38Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Banning the AR15 wont do anything about "the problem. " If it’s violent crime you are talking about as “the problem” AR15s (or any rifle) are used extremely rarely in crime/murders. If it’s mass shootings- not only are there plenty of other weapons that would do just as well, but sociologists have shown it’s the media as the media glorifies the shooters. It’s not guns. OFFS, give this one trick pony a rest, will ya. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2019, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/74 "2019-09-17T16:25:16Z")
> [@Fiddle\_Peghead](#): > > … And on that note, we need a term for a [gun](https://www.npr.org/2019/08/08/748665339/the-pistol-that-looks-like-a-rifle-the-dayton-shooters-gun) like the Dayton killer used, that allows one to kill 9 people and injure dozens more in 30 seconds. A term that is so suggestive of this type of firepower, that terms like automatic or semi-automatic, or whatever, become completely irrelevant. It’s not a great term but “assault weapon” is what you want. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2019, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/75 "2019-09-17T16:31:40Z")
> [@Fiddle\_Peghead](#): > > My bold and italics. I see this type of response all the time, and I wish to God gun-control advocates would take note. They need to be completely knowledgeable about the terms they use, so legitimate questions like yours are nullified. And on that note, we need a term for a [gun](https://www.npr.org/2019/08/08/748665339/the-pistol-that-looks-like-a-rifle-the-dayton-shooters-gun) like the Dayton killer used, that allows one to kill 9 people and injure dozens more in 30 seconds. A term that is so suggestive of this type of firepower, that terms like automatic or semi-automatic, or whatever, become completely irrelevant. Ignorance is awesome! I mean, if you or kirkrapine want to make sweeping and erroneous, ignorant, and foolish assertions that’s your call. I could tell you what the generally accepted nomenclature is for that type of firearm, what the characteristics are that determine that nomenclature, but I’m not sure you actually want to know. The article you linked quotes a former special agent of BATFE calling it a _weapon of mass destruction_ which is about on par with the rhetorical accuracy being displayed here. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2019, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/76 "2019-09-17T16:32:47Z")
> [@CaptMurdock](#): > > I want to see cites that “the media”, after these mass shootings, praised these shooters as REAL AMERICAN HEROES. > > It’s not guns. It’s the irresponsible fuckwads who can’t be trusted to own guns, and the spineless enablers who hide behind 200-year-old ink on paper who would rather see schoolchildren be gunned down in the classroom than actually do something besides Thinking and Praying. > > Freedom comes with responsibility. Can’t handle the responsibility, can’t have the freedom. Welcome to adulthood, cupcake. > **[Mass shootings can be contagious, research shows](https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2019/08/06/748767807/mass-shootings-can-be-contagious-research-shows)** > > It may not be a coincidence that several mass shootings took place in a few days. Research shows perpetrators are often inspired by media coverage of other shootings. > **[The Media Is an Accomplice in School Shootings](https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/crucial-conversations/201204/the-media-is-accomplice-in-school-shootings?fbclid=IwAR3mGMFLyVaQIqRHHMTUdJ-mmFXmPMP0elXGyZKr4gl68rJRTObuojybVyc)** > > A call for a “Stephen King” law \*The second dose came as I held my breath, hoping and praying the media wouldn’t amplify the violence. But they did. They did exactly what was needed to influence the next perpetrator to lock and load. 1. ``` They named the shooter. ``` 2. ``` They described his characteristics. ``` 3. ``` They detailed the crime. ``` 4. ``` They numbered the victims. ``` 5. ``` They ranked him against other “successful” attackers. ``` School shootings are a contagion. And the media are consistent accomplices in most every one of them. There’s really no useful debate on the point. The consensus of social scientists since David Phillips’ groundbreaking work in 1974 is that highly publicized stories of deviant and dangerous behavior influences copycat incidents. \* > **[03-Lee.pdf](https://eloncdn.blob.core.windows.net/eu3/sites/153/2018/12/03-Lee.pdf?fbclid=IwAR3nyYZ8pS4pNOXS1OKyFnf_44_abrmB19KaOPkhRNt-pHzwQqHI2r9fjYM)** > > 381.02 KB \*This study suggests that there is a pattern between the spread of mass shooting news on social media platforms and the increase in these crimes. Over time, as social media has increased in usage, so has the coverage of news concerning mass shootings. This also further reflects shooters’ desire for fame and their tendency to copy a crime. Evidence from this study reveals a large increase in the number of mass shootings after 2011’s social media milestones, and one can conclude that social media most likely has some effect on these crimes, although the degree of this relationship is beyond the scope of this study. \* > **[Does Media Coverage Inspire Copy Cat Mass Shootings?](https://www.center4research.org/copy-cats-kill/?fbclid=IwAR0hBB80gcia9yoA7vqR4l4VM9oIiInLbUtRuAEuC3-k7M3lsW1yXPMrEQ8)** > > Media coverage of mass shootings may encourage “copy cats” who want attention. Changing how media reports mass shootings and reducing access to guns both help. \*Shooters get enormous attention: their name, photo, motivations, and story are often shared for days following the event. The American Psychological Association points out that this “fame” is something that most mass shooters desire.[2] This sometime inspires a copycat shooting, where the potential shooter typically tries to kill more people than their predecessor. The number of mass shootings in the U.S. has increased exponentially since the early 2000s\* Its’ that “200 year old ink” that allows the media to get away with causing these shootings and allows you to post here. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2019, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/77 "2019-09-17T16:33:50Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > OFFS, give this one trick pony a rest, will ya. :rolleyes: I know, science and facts often get in the way of emotions. Too bad. ---
**Author:** ![Chingon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chingon/32/17645_2.png) [@Chingon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chingon)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2019, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/78 "2019-09-17T16:34:50Z")
I thought it was them video games that was to blame. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2019, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/79 "2019-09-17T16:37:13Z")
> [@Chingon](#): > > I thought it was them video games that was to blame. Many ignorant people would rather listen to trump than actual scientists and experts. ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2019, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/80 "2019-09-17T17:37:31Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Ignorance is awesome! I mean, if you or kirkrapine want to make sweeping and erroneous, ignorant, and foolish assertions that’s your call. I could tell you what the generally accepted nomenclature is for that type of firearm, what the characteristics are that determine that nomenclature, but I’m not sure you actually want to know. The article you linked quotes a former special agent of BATFE calling it a _weapon of mass destruction_ which is about on par with the rhetorical accuracy being displayed here. What would you call that weapon then? Just as a broad term? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333.md?page=5)