# O'Rourke on gun confiscation, then and now (a.k.a. Francis' flip-flop) **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [September 16, 2019, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333 "2019-09-16T19:10:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2019, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/141 "2019-09-19T16:55:38Z")
Isn’t there a heirarchy of how destructive different weapons are? (You guys who love “heirarchy” ought to be up on it.) Yes of course there is. Some guns are more destructive than others. Some are illegal by this reasoning. There is no slippery slope coming, it’s here now. The knife argument: Wow. Wow. We really need another amendment in case they come for our screwdrivers, I’m telling you. The control of firearms is based first on lethality. So gun arguers should introduce this thing called “proportionality” into their arguments, or at the very least admit that it exists, for fucks sake, or they will lose the arguments they have with others. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2019, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/142 "2019-09-19T17:12:18Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > That’s exactly what they do. The AR-15 is used not because it’s the deadliest, but because it looks bad-ass. There are also a whole lot of them out there, so they are relatively easy to find/steal. > > But if the AR is banned, there are lots of other guns that look ‘badass’. And all it will take is some action movie where the hero uses twin shotguns or something, and we’ll start seeing shotgun killings. If that happens, are we going to ban shotguns? > > London banned all the guns. Then knives became the cool thing to have. Now people are being murdered with knives, and the government wants to ban scary looking knives and make it illegal to carry a knife on your person. > > You let them take away all the knives, and next they’ll come for your screwdrivers. Because it’s easier than admitting that you have large scale social problems of your own making, You’re right. Nothing can be done. We should do nothing. Last thing we want is for disturbed individuals to come into a school with a screw driver or have one throw sharp rocks at a concert crowd from his hotel window. -OR- Prohibit “assault style” weapons. Prohibit large capacity magazines. Prohibit OC/CC, with very strictly defined exceptions. Set limit on type and max number of weapons for household. Prohibit people from taking weapons designated for home defense from being removed from home. Strict laws about transporting weapons (triger locks and disarmed). Comprehensive background checks and red flag laws (nationally). Can we try that for a while? Like for a generation or two. See what happens. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2019, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/143 "2019-09-19T17:31:07Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > I don’t doubt they’re marketed that way, nudge nudge, wink wink. But not because they don’t want to, right? The Browning is marketed that way. It was a wood stock and a limited capacity magazine. Doubtful, since in the past, when you could buy a Tommygun in a hardware store, few people hunted with them. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2019, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/144 "2019-09-19T17:39:07Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > Isn’t there a heirarchy of how destructive different weapons are? (You guys who love “heirarchy” ought to be up on it.) > > Yes of course there is. Some guns are more destructive than others. Some are illegal by this reasoning. There is no slippery slope coming, it’s here now. > > The knife argument: Wow. Wow. We really need another amendment in case they come for our screwdrivers, I’m telling you. > > The control of firearms is based first on lethality. So gun arguers should introduce this thing called “proportionality” into their arguments, or at the very least admit that it exists, for fucks sake, or they will lose the arguments they have with others. They have banned “zombie knives” in the UK. So the slope\* is\* slippery. Not really, it’s based on them looking scary and being used in mass shootings, but mass shooting are a tiny % of murders in the USA. There are about 17,000 murders in the USA, 11000 with guns, 1600 with knives, etc. Of those 7000 are with handguns, and rifles (which include the AR15) account for a mere 400. Thus knives are four times more deadly than rifles, in terms of murders. > **[Homicides by murder weapon in the U.S. 2022 | Statista](https://www.statista.com/statistics/195325/murder-victims-in-the-us-by-weapon-used/)** > > Handguns are by far the most common murder weapon used in the United States, accounting for 7,936 homicides in 2022. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2019, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/145 "2019-09-19T17:43:42Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > You’re right. Nothing can be done. We should do nothing. Last thing we want is for disturbed individuals to come into a school with a screw driver or have one throw sharp rocks at a concert crowd from his hotel window. > > -OR- > > Prohibit “assault style” weapons. Prohibit large capacity magazines. Prohibit OC/CC, with very strictly defined exceptions. Set limit on type and max number of weapons for household. Prohibit people from taking weapons designated for home defense from being removed from home. Strict laws about transporting weapons (triger locks and disarmed). Comprehensive background checks and red flag laws (nationally). > > Can we try that for a while? Like for a generation or two. See what happens. Or- simply prohibit/ask the broadcast media from using the names of mass killers. CA has banned assault weapons since 1989 has no OC and almost no CCW, background checks for all gun sales. So there, _it has been tried_ for a generation or two- and it made not a dent in the murder rate. CA is still where it was- right in the middle of all states. Oh and " Prohibit people from taking weapons designated for home defense from being removed from home. " they cant go to the range and practice? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2019, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/146 "2019-09-19T18:31:13Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Oh and " Prohibit people from taking weapons designated for home defense from being removed from home. " they cant go to the range and practice? :rolleyes: You beat me to it. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2019, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/147 "2019-09-19T18:34:17Z")
> [@cutman74](#): > > As a liberal gun owner, I would like to add a few things. I have an assault rifle. Not an AR15, a mini 30. Cheaper ammo, and larger projectile. The reason that it is classified as such is because it has a 20 rnd magazine and a pistol grip and a an adjustable and foldable stock. I didn’t know the Ruger mini .30 had a model with a folding stock. Back to “easily moved in the car.” Several hunters loading into a car trying to not point a rifle at someone, and hoping no one was stupid enough to take a loaded rifle into a car. ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2019, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/148 "2019-09-19T19:52:41Z")
Massacre machines? #branding ---
**Author:** ![control-z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/eada6e/32.png) [@control-z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/control-z)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2019, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/149 "2019-09-19T20:14:17Z")
O’Rourke has an impressive [-5,142 downvotes on Reddit](https://old.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/d6etv5/hi_im_beto_orourke_a_candidate_for_president/f0seav4/) right now from his response to the question “How will you confiscate the millions of AR 15s?” His answer: > [@](#): > > Americans will comply with the law. It will be a mandatory buyback of AR-15 and AK-47s, weapons designed for war. Because we understand that theres no reason for a any of us to own a weapon that was designed to kill people on a battlefield. Especially when that kind of weapon is so often used to kill and terrorize people throughout this country — in their schools, in their grocery stores, in their churches, in their synagogues, at concerts… everywhere. I have met countless AR and AK owners who say they don’t need it to hunt, they don’t need it for self defense, it’s fun to shoot but would give it up. Because they also have kids and grandkids and want them to be safe. And Reddit definitely leans more liberal than conservative. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2019, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/150 "2019-09-19T20:22:51Z")
More direct link here: > **[r/IAmA - Hi. I'm Beto O'Rourke, a candidate for President.](https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/d6etv5/comment/f0sje1u/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=usertext&utm_name=IAmA&utm_content=t1_f0ss3v8)** > > 10,272 votes and 26,002 comments so far on Reddit That being said, I’m impressed he’s willing to interact with people directly on Reddit. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2019, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/151 "2019-09-19T20:36:13Z")
[Colt will stop making AR-15s for civilian sale, says there’s already plenty on market](https://www.nbcnews.com/business/business-news/colt-will-stop-making-ar-15s-civilian-sale-says-there-n1056561). Imagine. The market is saturated, so they’re just going to stop selling them. Huh. But only to the consumer market. Double-huh. GM: “Yeah, there’s a lot of cars on the road and traffic was a pain. So we’re going to stop selling cars to consumers. The market is obviously saturated.” Microsoft: “Yeah, man, we’ve sold millions of pieces of software. There’s plenty on the market, so we’re not selling software anymore. At least not to consumers.” McDonalds: “Fuck this shit. 100 billion served? Just to consumers? Market saturation! Let’s close down the consumer division, only sell to businesses and governments!” Nike: “Shoes don’t wear down. They don’t fall apart. Not for consumers, they don’t. Therefore, the market is saturated and we’re only selling our shoes in bulk.” Walgreens: “Remember all that oxycotin we sold? Well, we’ve sold enough. Product withdrawn.” ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2019, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/152 "2019-09-19T20:40:22Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Cool. Maybe we bring back the old-fashioned six-shooter, which would suffice quite well for self-defense, and ban everything else besides single-shot hunting rifles. I, for one, am OK with this proposal. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2019, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/153 "2019-09-19T20:56:54Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > [Colt will stop making AR-15s for civilian sale, says there’s already plenty on market](https://www.nbcnews.com/business/business-news/colt-will-stop-making-ar-15s-civilian-sale-says-there-n1056561). > > Imagine. The market is saturated, so they’re just going to stop selling them. Huh. But only to the consumer market. Double-huh. > > GM: “Yeah, there’s a lot of cars on the road and traffic was a pain. So we’re going to stop selling cars to consumers. The market is obviously saturated.” > Microsoft: “Yeah, man, we’ve sold millions of pieces of software. There’s plenty on the market, so we’re not selling software anymore. At least not to consumers.” > McDonalds: “Fuck this shit. 100 billion served? Just to consumers? Market saturation! Let’s close down the consumer division, only sell to businesses and governments!” > Nike: “Shoes don’t wear down. They don’t fall apart. Not for consumers, they don’t. Therefore, the market is saturated and we’re only selling our shoes in bulk.” > Walgreens: “Remember all that oxycotin we sold? Well, we’ve sold enough. Product withdrawn.” If you actually understood the gun market, you’d know that the patents on the AR-15 expired long ago, and there are as many as 500 manufacturers making ARs and parts now. Colt was only one of them. That’s what they mean by the market being saturated. Also, since the patents expired many people buy AR parts piecemeal and build their own. If you want an analogy to medicine, it would be more like a manufacturer of a patented drug getting out of the market after their patent expires and all the generics come in and saturate it at lower prices. A big manufacturer like Colt probably doesn’t think there’s a big enough market for the Colt version of an AR-15, when dozens of other, smaller manufacturers are offering variants on the same thing. Especially when it comes with potential PR and future legal problems. It does NOT mean that people won’t be able to buy a new AR-15. ---
**Author:** ![CaptMurdock](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/captmurdock/32/11736_2.png) [@CaptMurdock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CaptMurdock)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2019, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/154 "2019-09-19T21:05:42Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > CA has banned assault weapons since 1989 has no OC and almost no CCW, background checks for all gun sales. So there, _it has been tried_ for a generation or two- and it made not a dent in the murder rate. CA is still where it was- right in the middle of all states. > : **Oh thank God!** For a minute, I thought for a minute that enough people weren’t dying in California in order to bolster your argument to fetishize guns! Whew! Dodged a bullet there, didn’t we? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2019, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/155 "2019-09-19T21:10:49Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > [Colt will stop making AR-15s for civilian sale, says there’s already plenty on market](https://www.nbcnews.com/business/business-news/colt-will-stop-making-ar-15s-civilian-sale-says-there-n1056561). > > Imagine. The market is saturated, so they’re just going to stop selling them. Huh. But only to the consumer market. Double-huh. > > … This is like Bayer not selling aspirin any more as too many generic brands. None of your analogies , clever as you think they are, hold water. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2019, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/156 "2019-09-19T21:12:08Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > A six shooter can kill six people in a hurry. A double rig can kill twelve. Add in some speedloaders, and in about 3 seconds you can kill 6 more. Continue until your ammo runs out. Then we require that they be configured so you have to reload them by hand, one bullet at a time. Yes, it could still kill six people in a hurry. But not sixty. > [@](#): > > An AR-15 cannot kill people any faster than a standard semi-automatic hunting rifle. That’s nice, but I was referring to a hunting rifle with a capacity of one bullet. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2019, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/157 "2019-09-19T21:12:43Z")
LOL, that’s so wrong, Sam. Their argument tries to have it both ways: “We’re no longer making them because they don’t sell, but holy shit, look at the numbers we’re moving on the government and large-order market!” That’s not the actions of a manufacturer who truly believes the market is “oversaturated”, because Colt itself admits it isn’t. That’s the actions of a marketer who is getting out of a segment of the market for other reasons. The statement would have been more honest had it said what you said: “The legal and financial exposure to manufacturing these things has exceeded our profit and revenue expectations to a point where it’s better to withdraw from this market.” And guys, the fuckin’ patent expired in 1977, so please, stop that defense. It makes zero sense in their \ September, 2019 decision. Colt still holds the trademark on “AR-15”, so I guess they got that going for them. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2019, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/158 "2019-09-19T21:17:43Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Nothing I’ve said indicates I’d be satisfied with your proposal. I’m just trying to correct your ignorance. Your objections seemed to be based on your need for protection against home intruders. I have no problem with your having a gun that can fire a few shots quickly against the bogeyman coming up the stairs or down the hall towards your bedroom. If you have less legitimate needs for owning firearms (including whatever emotional attachments you may have to high-powered artillery), I cannot support those. I regard the lives of my fellow citizens as being more important than whatever those needs might be. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2019, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/159 "2019-09-19T21:24:42Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > A six shooter can kill six people in a hurry. One thing about handguns is that bullets fired from one just don’t have the velocity of bullets fired from a high-powered semi-auto rifle. And when someone is injured rather than killed by such a bullet, that makes a huge difference in their ability to recover. An AR-15 bullet passing through you will take big chunks out of your innards, while your body is able to close in around the slower handgun bullet; your internal wound won’t be much bigger than the track of the bullet itself. People injured by an AR-15 are likely crippled for life. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2019, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333/160 "2019-09-19T21:30:47Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Of course, we all know that once the AR’s are gone, you’ll just move on to the next weapon on your list of things to ban. Nobody believes that anti-gunners just want ‘common sense’ regulation. You hate guns, and you want them all gone. Beto just made that clear, when the left cheered his gun confiscation plan and none of the other major candidates for president pushed back against him. Nah, we hate people getting slaughtered on a regular basis. We hate our kids having “active shooter” drills in school. We want to be as safe from guns as people in all the other developed nations are. We don’t think people should be able to walk the streets with the capacity to slaughter dozens of people anytime the idea gets into their heads. That shouldn’t be incredibly difficult to understand. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orourke-on-gun-confiscation-then-and-now-a-k-a-francis-flip-flop/840333.md?page=9)